Dr Louise Newson: Okay. So Sally, I feel quite nervous actually, because I just so in awe of everything that you do, and it's just such an honour to have met you. It must have been like two, two years ago. Was it? It feels quite a while ago.

Sally Wainwright: Yes. Yeah, I guess it is. Um, is it? Yes, it's two years ago. It was, when we start, we were researching Riot Women.

Dr Louise: It's just amazing. So, so your journey has been incredible because you just get under the skin of people and you really like, seem to know so much about how different people from different backgrounds really live. And when I say really, it's really important because. I've worked in lots of areas of deprivation in Manchester. I've been to some houses that I wouldn't ever want to visit again. The smells, the noise, the what's been going on. Um, I've worked a lot with drug abusers. I've worked with all sorts of people, and for me it's a real privilege. But I can do that as a doctor and being allowed into people's houses, but you've got this way of just really bringing it all to life. But your story of how you learned so much I think is really interesting. So I don't know if you don't mind just sharing a bit about how you got that lived experience when you were working on the bus.

Sally: I was see, uh, when I worked on the buses, well, I suppose,. Yeah, when when I finished university I wanted to be a writer. Yeah. And back then everybody said If you wanna be a writer, you've gotta live in London. So I moved down to London without any money. I think I was down to my last five pounds literally at one point. And a friend of mine said, oh, you like driving. Why don't you apply to be a bus driver? So I did. I applied to be a bus driver and I became, I quite enjoyed it. I quite enjoyed driving the bus. I like vehicles and the bigger the better. So I used to drive up to Heathrow Airport on the 111 and there's fantasising about driving the airplanes.

Dr Louise: Oh my gosh.

Sally: I suppose, yeah. But it's interesting talking about. You know, um, the sort of nitty gritty of writing shows. 'cause I think for me it's, it's often about getting a really good advisor on board.

Dr Louise: Yeah.

Sally: Yeah. Like when I was writing a drama like Scott and Bailey for instance, had a fantastic ex-detective who was really intrinsic to the show and she told me stuff in a bit, like you've just said, it's kind of the kind of thing that you, you kind of come away almost wishing you almost didn't know. But it's essential when you're writing a drama like that, you know, the truth is always, I think, much more interesting than anything I could make up.

Dr Louise: Yeah. Oh, course. Yeah.

Sally: So it's, for me that's the key is, you know, really good advisor on board, on whatever capacity, whatever you're writing about, you know, whether you're writing ahistorical drama or a police drama or a drama about rock music. You still need people on board. And I mean, and that's why we came to you. 'cause we, I wanted to write about women who were at a certain point in their lives and certainly the menopause is a big aspect of that. You know, it's not the only thing going on in their, their lives, but it's a big part.

Dr Louise: It's something that connects them though, isn't it?

Sally: Yeah and it's a, it's a big, um, thing that's going on in their lives. And it, and it affects certainly I realised as I was starting to write the show, how many elements of my life it affected.

Dr Louise: And did you realise that before you started researching?

Sally: Yeah. It was always meant to be about, I think I started writing the show about 10 years ago, or I started thinking about the show properly about 10 years ago, which would've coincided with me starting… my menopause was late and I think I hadn't really thought about it much till it started and so I'd be starting to go through it, I think, and like a lot of people you’re too consciously… I think people are more now because of people like you who were you know, making us so much more aware of it. But I think I wasn't particularly waiting for it or anticipating it in the way that I should have been.

Dr Louise: No, most of us don't.

Sally: Um, you know, you think it's probably not gonna happen to you.

Dr Louise: Yeah. Yeah.

Sally: But of course it is and so I was starting to be aware of it and starting to be aware of certain things going on in my life that I was having to juggle with.

Dr Louise: Yeah.

Sally: And that's kind of what the show is about. It's about women of my age as I was then 10years ago, 50, mid 50, um, early 50s. And it's not just, it's, it's about it's an age where you, you're very capable. You know, you've, you've weathered a few slings and arrows and you've got a lot on your plate. You're juggling a lot of things. You know, you've got, in my case, I had my mum who started with dementia, which was a shock. And again, something you don't anticipate because you don't, you don't expect it to. You don't expect it to happen even though you kind of probably should. In some ways you kind of don't, you don't. It's the kinda thing you don't worry about until it happens.

Dr Louise: Yeah.

Sally: I've got teenage boys, um, a very busy job and you, so you're juggling a lot of things and in the middle of that, the menopause starts and so I wanted to write about that. I want to write about how the menopause comes and gets you. But I wanted to write about it in a way that was kind of uplifting and interesting because I think there's a tendency to think of the menopause as some, until you came along and sort of blew the doors off, that, you know, we don't talk about it, it's a bit miserable. It's a bit low energy. We don't really wanna go there. And I wanted to try and find a way to write about it that was, you know engaging.

Dr Louise: And educating as well. Because, you know, when I talk to my mother. And she's fortunate because she did see a doctor who started on HRT in the 80s, but it was referred to as the change. They didn't even use the word menopause. And a book I was reading from the 1800s was describing it as the crisis time. And he was really, this is someone called Edward Tilt, amazing doctor, but he was talking more about the perimenopause actually and talking a lot about mental health. But this crisis, it often is. And then it's interesting because I talk to some people who say ‘oh, you need to tone it down, Louise’. People are now being scared about the symptoms. They're being so scared about the mental health symptoms and it's because you're talking about it and it's like, hang on. Women don't make up symptoms. You know, we are quite tough really. But what I think I have done is unmasked it so that women who have been labelled as being depressed schizophrenic, or personality disorders or whatever, are actually now thinking, hang on, how much of this is related to my hormones? And, and I think as women, we've just been gaslit quite a lot actually, and I don't use that term loosely, but so many people have said to me, well, you will feel like this because you've got children and you're busy. But I just find that really frustrating.

Sally: Yeah. well it was, it was really interesting for me when I came to meet you and talk to you about how just knowing that it's the menopause just helps you deal with it better. You know, I have always suffered from depression and I've always thought it was part of being alive. I've always thought it was part of being a writer, you know, the things you have to deal with. So it's been interesting just knowing that there's an explanation for it.

Dr Louise: And did you ever talk to anyone about it?

Sally: I've been to the odd therapist, but never for more than about five minutes. For me it was really interesting starting on HRT because I came from, as you know, from a background of ‘oh, I don't need that’.

Dr Louise: Of course. I know.

Sally: The only other person I'd really talked about the menopause was my mum.

Dr Louise: Oh, was it?

Sally: I suppose is true for a lot of people.

Dr Louise: Yeah.

Sally: She always claimed that she laughed her way through the menopause, which I now don't believe she did. I think she was actually quite depressed but that was her way of dealing with it, of sort of telling herself that I'm not gonna be beaten by this and I'm gonna laugh my way through it.

But I remember her suffering from headaches and all kinds of aches and pains and being really quite low. But I just bought into her telling me that she was laughing away through it rather than actually seeing what was in front of me. And it's only now I've realised that she wasn't laughing her way through it at all.

Dr Louise: And I often think, and I still do now, that menopause is not an ovary condition. It's not a womb condition, it's a brain condition. The commonest symptoms affecting people are brain-related symptoms. So the mood, the concentration, the energy. Most people I see and speak to say it's the mood changes. They feel joyless. They feel flat. It’s just that sort of existing, not living.

Sally: I’d forgotten that feeling, but I remember talking to you about that and where you just feel like all the joy has gone out of life.

Dr Louise: Yeah. I remember someone saying to me about 10 years ago in my clinic said, the zest for life is gone. And I thought, I get that completely. And until you've been there, it's quite hard to describe, isn't it? Because it's not something you can like say to people. It's not like you're crying all the time or you are, you know, some people are, some people are tearful, some people are angry, but a lot of it, it's just like, you're just flat lining.

Sally: Yeah. But I think people don't talk about it because you don't wanna be a drag, you don't wanna be the person who sucks the energy out of a conversation. So we sort of keep it to ourselves.

Dr Louise: Yeah. And I think, also like externally, you are really successful, You've got the most creative brain. You are, you know, producing so much so people wouldn't expect you. And like then who do you talk to and say, actually guys, I've woken up this morning again feeling really low. No-one wants to hear that, do they?

Sally: No. And you remind yourself of all the things you've got to be grateful about. But it doesn't seem to matter.

Dr Louise: It doesn't does it?

Sally: But you know, it's really interesting that I've forgotten that feeling

Dr Louise: It's because you don't have it now.

Sally: Yeah.

Dr Louise: Amazing, isn't it? Because I do remember talking to you about Riot Women, but then also saying, I think we need to talk about your own hormones.

Sally: I remember the first question you asked me.

Dr Louise: Oh, what was it?

Sally: Well, it was ‘just tell me about yourself. Tell me about your mum.’ And I said that my mom had dementia and that she'd got osteoporosis. And you said, well, that's two good reasons already why you should be taking HRT. But for me it was worse than that. It was feeling really, just that joylessness, that somehow life had lost its meaning. I don't think I'm suicidal, but I did have just vague notions of ‘oh, the world might be a bit better off without me.’

Oh, I remember talking to you about when I was filming Gentleman Jack and feeling tearful in the mornings and talking to our  head of make up who was on HRT and she was insisting that I needed to get HRT, and I'm like ‘no, I don't, I don't need things like that.’ Which was yeah, interesting thinking, thinking back to…

Dr Louise: And why do you think you were so resistant to it?

Sally: I just don't like taking any medication that you don't need to take. I've, I've always thought…

Dr Louise: But do you see it as medication?

Sally: I guess, I guess the idea of…I do because it's putting something into your body that isn't naturally being created anymore.

Dr Louise: Yeah.

Sally: But it's interesting what you've just told me about contraceptives. Because I took contraceptives when I was in my mid-late 20s, and I just ballooned. I mean, I've always been bigger than I should be, but that was shocking - like it was within the space of weeks, just put on something like two stone.

Dr Louise: And did you stay on contraceptives then?

Sally: No, but I didn't lose the weight when I stopped.

Dr Louise: That's interesting.

Sally: I have lost weight since then and I'm always struggling with weight…

Dr Louise: But it is interesting. I mean, I think a lot and educate a lot about the difference between natural hormones and synthetic hormones because when people say hormones or HRT, they immediately think: risks, breast cancer, I really shouldn't be having this. Whereas most of us have taken contraceptive pill, didn't even ask about it. My sister told me the other day when she was 16, she just went to the school doctor and said, ‘oh, can I have the Pill now I'm 16?’ because she's a June birthday and so over the year, all her friends had started taking it. We were in an all girls school that was boarding, so we had no access to boys anyway. And she just said I went on it because, and the doctor went, yeah, here you go. Take it. But the irony is that the Pill even now still contains synthetic chemicals that really are not natural for the body. They're not the same chemical structure. Whereas the hormones are literally replacing, like for like. So when you think about your brain health, your bone health, you're just stimulating those receptors that weren't stimulated. So the, the Pill just gives people a chemical menopause. So you would've been floored into menopause with your contraception, which no one really thinks about. No, it's, it's quite interesting when you think, but the mental health component is huge. The programme and the characters, they've all got different issues, different backgrounds but mental health does run through it, doesn't it a lot?

Sally: It's, it's mainly the two main characters, Beth and Kitty who, um, go onto HRT during the course of the show. Between episode three and four, there's a jump of six weeks. Pre that, we meet Beth and Kitty and they both start the show and they're both suicidal at the beginning. Basically trying to take their own lives into two very different ways. Beth's kind of going out with a whimper and Kitty's trying to go out with a bang, but they're both struggling with mental health at the beginning. Then they meet each other and this very unlikely friendship develops between them. Then we jump on after episode three to episode four, where they've both started taking HRT and their lives have changed. They've, their lives have changed in a number of ways, but they certainly cite that as being a factor.

Dr Louise: And how would the actors and the team respond? Because it is very dramatic, one of the ways of trying to take their life. And I've heard lots of women want to take their life and had these dark thoughts and planned how they were going to doit, but I'm sort of numbed to it because I hear it all the time. But for lots of people menopause is flushes and sweats. So when they were reading the script, like what were people's responses to it? Did they believe it or did they…

Sally: Oh, they certainly believed it. No-one ever questioned whether it was true or not. I think the great thing was it just sparked a lot of conversation amongst us socially and in rehearsal about you know, the slings and arrows of women that age, you know, the, the things that we go through and that we deal with, and that the things that come to bite us that we didn't expect or anticipate, as I say, like with my mum getting, developing dementia. And again, just that being part and parcel of life at that age for women, you know, the female experience of how you deal with it when you've got all these other things to deal with as well. And the surprise of what it does to you and as I said earlier, not being consciously aware of it, of all its aspects. You know, not being able to articulate all its different aspects.

Dr Louise: But it shows how common it is because I think if it was uncommon for women especially to have these thoughts, people would've said ‘no, that's, that must be really uncommon, Sally. Don't put that in.’ When you look at the research, even research we've done, one in six women who come to our clinic have thoughts of suicide before they come. And with Balance app we've got hundreds of thousands of people that monitor symptoms. And again, it's about one in six, um and it's one in six women are not getting help and one in six women aren't even being prescribed hormones. So a lot of people are internalising it, and it's not just menopausal women. A lot of women before their periods often have that really low dark thoughts. Thankfully a lot of people don't go through with it, but they still think about it more than other things and it is the mental health symptoms that affect women more than the physical symptoms because I know we were talking about how much of the hot flushes and sweats to tease out…

Sally: Well it’s interesting. I remember at one point we were gonna call the series Hot Flush, and you were really against that and I got to a point where I didn't want it just to be about hot flushes because that's, it's kind of a lazy shorthand for what it is really is. There's so much more to it. There's so much more to women's lives as well. And it, it's sort of reducing it as a joke almost.

Dr Louise: And that's what's happened. You know, even in the 30s and 40s when they first discovered hormones, the research was done with flushes and sweats because they could literally have, usually men with a clipboard monitoring the number of flushes that women had because you can physically see it. Whereas to ask someone what their mental health is like, how can you measure that? And so that's why they've ignored it, because they couldn't prove that it was related to hormones, whereas the sweats and flushes could. So it's great that you didn't call it that.

Sally: The other thing that we talked about a lot in the show is feeling invisible and that's another symptom I remember is just feeling like you're disappearing. Like everybody wants a piece of you and in the middle of that, you are disappearing or you’re becoming somebody you don't quite recognise anymore. And that's, that was certainly one of the themes of the show that Joanna's character, Beth, talks about in the first episode – feeling like nobody can see her. People are complaining about her, but then they don't see that she's got issues going on that nobody's interested in or helping her with.

Dr Louise: And I think also people have reduced self-esteem, low self-worth. One of the questions we've, we've got a new symptom questionnaire and one of the questions that we added was that just don't feel like yourself anymore which is really, really common, but then you're less likely to ask for help. And it is that sort of just withdrawing from society. A lot of people stop going out, they stop socialising. It's not just work, it's everything. They just sort of excuse. And I sort of think I, my mother and grandmother's generation, they sort of hid behind their apron strings. They didn't have to really go out the same way. A lot of people have crippling anxiety, so they don't drive anymore. They don't want to go on the underground, they don't go on a holiday, so they're sort of making their worlds get smaller and smaller and smaller. But the other area that really worries me is the addiction side of things. We did a survey a year and a half ago now about addictions and not just alcohol, but drugs as well, and some of the free text responses were really quite harrowing. Women turning to cocaine or class A drugs because they can't get help. And a lot of them are saying, ‘I can't get help from doctor. I have such awful anxiety. I have such deep, dark thoughts. It's lovely to have this euphoria, this escape from realism taking these drugs.’ and, but they've never done them before. This is women in their forties or fifties. And I've seen it in my patients. Someone recently was telling me, she's very posh, and she was telling me how she'd been micro dosing cocaine and something else, and I didn't like say ‘well, how did you get hold of that?’. Like, I have no idea what I would do but she said it's the only thing that can help me, Louise. She said my doctors, all they do is prescribe me antidepressants and I know I'm not depressed, but I can't cope with these intrusive, negative thoughts. I can't sleep. I'm very anxious. So I just thought I would try it but she said, but I'm a bit scared of hormones. That’s probably a bit safer than taking what you're taking, you know, but that's a worry. But that sort of teases out, doesn't it, with alcohol especially, in Riot Women, but it's blamed…

Sally: In the character of Kitty, she uses a lot of alcohol and drugs.

Dr Louise: Yeah. But it's very easy to look at Kitty and think, well, she's, it's just her life.

Sally: She's just a mess. But we meet her at a certain point in life when it's, it's kind of reaching a head.

Dr Louise: Of course it is. Yeah.

Sally: So I suppose that, and again, it's just because, I mean, she's the youngest of the Riot Women. She's not quite in that age group. But you know, as you said, you can menopause any age.

Dr Louise: Absolutely can. No, absolutely can. And actually when people abuse drugs and, and alcohol, their ovaries are actually usually switch off at an earlier age because her body protects them. Like, like Kitty's body is not healthy enough when she's full on not well to, to really support a pregnancy. So, I mean, our bodies are amazing. They protect us. So, you know, a lot of younger women who abuse drugs will have an earlier menopause. Certainly when I was volunteering in prisons last year, lots of women had hormonal issues and lots of them obviously doing drugs and alcohol, and no one's recognising that at all. So just for, to not just judge people for, ‘oh she's had a bad life’ or ‘oh the character that she is’ actually, could it be related to her hormones in any way? And what wasgreat is that she learned from her new friends, didn't she?

So obviously we're recording this before it goes out. I know it's gonna have an amazing response. I've seen the trailer and even then I had goosebumps down me.

Sally: Who knows! You never know.

Dr Louise: But what sort of response do you want to get from it? What's like your biggest sort of wish with it?

Sally: I always want to entertain people and hopefully make them think and, and kind of to tell people something new. Hopefully, you know, not new in any massive way, but just to hope people think a bit more about something. I suppose it was personally my way of dealing with the menopause was to write about it and what I was going through.

Dr Louise: Mm.

Sally: I suppose itis just to dramatise part of the female experience that we haven't seen dramatised on telly.

Dr Louise: It hasn’t, has it?

Sally: No I don't think so. But again it was just to try and find a way to do it that isn't po-faced or that isn't gonna make people go ‘oh’ or for men to think, ‘oh, I'm not watching that’. I think all the men I've spoken to about it actually seem quite, once you tell them what it's about, and all the men who've worked on the show, they, in post-production for instance - the people who weren't there filming it - you know, they've come to it fresh and they've actually responded really well.

Dr Louise: I bet they have.

Sally: You know, they love it. They enjoy it because it's fun. It's got fabulous music in it.

Dr Louise: Oh yeah. But I often say to people with menopause and hormonal changes, like once you see them, you can't unsee it. But it's opening the eyes to it. I think that's what this is really going to do, because everyone's going to resonate with one of the characters or some of the symptoms or just the way that they are, but the way they help each other and lift each other up is really powerful. But the music's fantastic and that I think really makes it, but just tell me about thesong.

Sally: Oh, well, yeah. In episode four, there's a song that, and I think we all helped write this song in a way. I mean ARXX have written the songs. I can't, I can't detract from that at all, they've done a brilliant job, but we did give them some ideas for what the song should be about, and we threw some odd lines in as well to suggest things. In fact, the first line's written by the police advisor, Lisa. Which is, ‘I'm so depressed I can't get dressed.’ That actually came from Lisa, the police advisor. But then there's one line that I'm sure came from you, whether directly or indirectly about, if it happened to blokes, (i.e. the menopause) if it happened to blokes, we'd be getting HRT from Tesco.

Dr Louise: Yeah.

Sally: ARXX, Hanni and Clara who are ARXX, they come up with this fabulous refrain when the song goes into ‘Give me HRT’, and it becomes this chant. Hopefully the audience have already seen this now, but the audience pick up the chant and by the end of the song, even the, some of the men in the audience are singing ‘Give me HRT’. So it's again it about making it engaging and uplifting and fun.

Dr Louise: Because you know globally how many menopausal women are prescribed HRT?

Sally: Probably very few.

Dr Louise: Five per cent. Whereas all guidelines is, majority should be taking it.

Sally: Yeah. The other thing I've been talking to people a lot recently about is something you told me. People saying ‘when I get through the menopause’ and I keep saying, you don't get through it.

Dr Louise: Well done. It's really true. Like I was talking to someone the other day who was just saying about the whole transition and there will be times where you'll feel bad and other times you'll feel better. But once you are through it and it is this whole, and I see so many women who say, oh, it's really not relevant because I'm through it. When people say post menopause, it's like, no, you are menopausal. Like try and get rid of that word because it is that terminology, isn't it that, um, and I also think a lot of people, because they associate with flushes and sweats, if they don't have them, they think they can't be menopausal.

Sally: They attribute all that other symptoms to other things

Dr Louise: Yeah, well, they think also they're getting older. So women in their 60s, 70s, 80s,say, oh yeah, but I will feel a bit tired and I will not sleep well and I won't have some urinary symptoms and I won't have some joint pains because I'm older and I don’t know how many are related to hormones, but I'll just say, well, let's give you some hormones to help with your bones and your brain and your heart and then literally they'll say, wow, ‘I sleep better. I don't get up for the night to have a wee’ and it's those little things that you wouldn't necessarily take a medication for one or two things, but it's, it's what it's like, you know, you've, you've noticed a difference. Like you're just, you're so different to when I first met you, and there's lots of things that have changed, but obviously hormones have been a quite a big factor, haven't they?

Sally: Yeah. Yeah. Haven't had any urinary tract infections since.

Dr Louise: Which is amazing when you think…

Sally: I only had one or two, but it was enough to think, I don't want these.

Dr Louise: Yeah. Well, you know, 30% of sepsis is due to urinary tract infections.

Sally: Is it?

Dr Louise: Yes and it's, it's preventable. You know, and we've known since the 80s that women even just using vaginal hormones can reduce the instance of urinary tract infections. Obviously systemic hormones will help keep the immune system functioning better, reduce all infections. But it’s still not thought of. We still give antibiotics all the time, which is wrong. So, you're not coming off your HRT?

Sally: No, no, no. I don't think so. No.

Dr Louise: No good. So it's, it's just such a privilege to like hear and also just to watch how the programme, like I'm very black and white, I'm very scientific. I'm very boring. But I came up to Hebden Bridge and watched like how it all came together.

But it was great. But what I found, like still can't get my head around now that you film like all these tiny little clips and you redo them and redo them and redo them, and then you go to something else and then you go to something else. And then it was just like some massive jigsaw and then it all comes together.

Sally: Well, we shoot everything out of sequence because we have to, because we shoot by location. So we can shoot out, you know, we'll dress a location and then we shoot everything in that location and then it can be de-rigged.

Dr Louise: It's so clever.

Sally: So it, well itis like a military operation. You've got like, you know, 75 people on set everyday and you know, time's money and you've to really crack on with it. I suppose the, the thing is you, because you're shooting out of sequence, you have to have the whole thing in your head.

Dr Louise: Well, that's what I found amazing. I mean, you were so kind. I was like, your little shadow. I just wanted to like, just so I was literally on your shoulder watching everything and just the way that you.

Sally: It's fun, isn't it?

Dr Louise: It, it's fun, but you have to be really patient as well. Like, because that scene, um, you, you were just redoing and redoing…

Sally: We were filming in the pub, weren’t we?

Dr Louise: And like the top wasn't quite there. Like the strap was down and it should have been up and she was having to do it again. And, and for the actors it's really hard. It's so much easier doing live television because you're just on and then you're onto the next, whereas this is just each time you want it better and the, the right one, but you've got that. You can just see it, you know the one, and then when suddenly, you know, it was the right clip, that was it you can move on to the next. It's, it's such an art, it's incredible. So I'm just so excited to like, watch it all together. But like I say, seeing the trailer, just seeing those characters come to life. I know there's not going to be someone that doesn't sit there and think, yeah, that's me, or that's my mum, or that's my aunt, or that's my sister, or my daughter or someone at work. And what I really hope from it is that people will just start to start that conversation and make it, but not normalise it, but just then facilitate them to be able to get help and advice, support and treatment that they want, um, in a nonjudgmental way. 'cause that's really important, isn't it?

I'm very grateful, Sally, but when, um, when I finish my podcast, I always ask for three take home tips. I just would really like to ask you three things that you wish you'd known about hormones before I met you.

Sally: I wish that I'd known that the, the report about connecting it to breast cancer was, had been discredited, as far as I understand, because I think that's what put me off.

Dr Louise: Yeah.,

Sally: I wish I'd known that my low moods could have been helped massively by taking hormones.

Dr Louise: What about bones? Helping your bones? Osteoporosis. Did you know that before?

Sally: No, I didn't, I didn't know that before. I didn't know that those linked with osteoporosis or dementia. Because I do remember that was when we first started talking and you asked me to talk about my mum. And and I, and I'm, I'm constantly worried that I'm starting with dementia because both my parents had dementia.

Dr Louise: I think that's the thing. It's trying to change the conversation, thinking about the risks of not having hormones. Whereas for so many years we've always been thought about the risks of having HRT and, and the risk to the suffering actually for women. So suffering in silence no more after Riot Women. So really grateful for you coming. Thanks, Sally.

Sally: Thank you