Dr Louise Newson: [01:00:00] Penny Lancaster is my guest today. She gives a really open account of her own story, not just her own menopause story, but her life in general. But her menopause was diagnosed by the team in Loose Women. She had been misdiagnosed with depression and thought she actually had depression and needed antidepressants. So it was a real honour to meet her as a patient in COVID times and help her to educate herself about hormones. And also about the different symptoms, which has really helped her to educate so many other women about hormonal health. So Penny...Hello! We've only met...

Penny Lancaster: [01:00:38] Hello!

Dr Louise Newson: [01:00:40] Once in real life.

Penny Lancaster: [01:00:41] I know. But I feel like I've known you forever because I feel like you've also changed my life.

Dr Louise Newson: [01:00:46] Oh, Penny, thank you.

Penny Lancaster: [01:00:47] Yeah, I mean that really slippery slope that I went on, you know, when I was like 49, kind of crying out for help in the middle of lockdown, thinking it was the anxiety and fear around lockdown that was causing my symptoms, to the point where I'm always the guiding light and the one that people turn to for help and you know, the answers. I couldn't even help myself. And I was like, literally just on the floor in a, in a ball of sweat and tears and just panicking. And then my GP, who I had at the time, male, just responded to the tears with antidepressants.

Dr Louise Newson: [01:01:35] And did you know then that you weren't depressed or did you just, you thought you were?

Penny Lancaster: [01:01:39] No I thought I was depressed. And I'd never felt that way before. So I didn't recognise it. But of course, I hadn't had any knowledge on what menopause was. I'd heard of the word, but I didn't understand it at all. And it wasn't until I went on one of the Loose Women shows. And it was when we were back in the studio, I think it was, but there was no audience because of the lockdown rules and stuff. And I was describing what I was feeling and they were like, Penny, no, no no no, you've got this all wrong. You were not depressed. This is your hormones. This is the menopause. Your body is like being depleted of the hormones. And obviously... women will have side effects. Some are going to be affected more than others, but this is everything. You're ticking enough boxes to suggest that it's the menopause and they go, I could better get some blood work done. And then that was a whole misconception because then I realised that actually having gone through IVF and having blood work done with that, there'd be one month I'd take my blood, it's not really a great month. Hormones aren't where they need to be. Let's wait, be patient, we'll test you another week. Boom they were great. So what's the point in doing a blood test to see if you're hormonal because one week it's fine, next minute it's not and we all know that you have a good period and a bad period. One that's like clockwork, the other one that just goes on longer and it's heavier and so you know I was told by you and passed on the message to others that it's all about... I mean the list goes on and on but if you can at least tick five of those main symptoms, then just talk to your GP, request that you go onto it, and then maybe two or three months down the line look at doing blood work. [01:03:31][112.2]

Dr Louise Newson: [01:03:31] And that's really important. And I remember, I mean, you've written about it in the books so I'm not disclosing anything, but you know, you were in a really bad place, but you are a massive coper, you know. I remember because you had all the children at home. I mean we all did, yeah. So there was a lot that you had to deal with, but you've always dealt with a lot. Yes. And I, remember you saying, you know, how worried you were about yourself. Rod was obviously...

Penny Lancaster: [01:03:58] Very concerned.

Dr Louise Newson: [01:03:58] Really concerned about you.

Penny Lancaster: [01:03:58] Yeah, because it was just, you know, who did everyone look to for the answers and the decisions was me and then I wasn't there. Not really.

Dr Louise Newson: [01:04:09] I remember you saying you just wanted to escape from the house didn't you?

Penny Lancaster: [01:04:11] Yeah, I used to lie in a hammock in the chicken area and hide, like I cocooned myself up and just wanted to shut myself off from everyone, like don't come to me, I'm no use to you kind of feeling.

Dr Louise Newson: [01:04:27] You see, it's funny, but it's not funny. And even since we last met, I've been funding a PhD student in suicide prevention and I'm really focused on mental health and hormones because I've lost count the number of women I see who have really struggled and they've not just had antidepressants, they've had antipsychotics, they've lithium, they've electro convulsive therapy. And they think that's the path, that's their lot, really. And lot of women just become more and more invisible. They can't cope because of their mental health symptoms and they think that's just the way it is and we've known that for hundreds of years. Women have become more invisible as they've aged but actually it doesn't have to be that way and it really frustrates me and saddens me that so many people can't get hormones.

Penny Lancaster: [01:05:16] Well, it absolutely frustrates me because you talk about being invisible, like the workplace of women that have been working hard, working their way up the ladder as it were, you know, on par with their male counterparts, who's going to get the promotion? And it's at that real prime age when we've gained all that experience and knowledge, where suddenly we feel like we're falling apart. And like you say, nobody can see me and I can't remember this or I'm forgetting things or I've got the brain fog or I can't sleep at night so I can't function properly during the day and all those things and maybe I'm not what I thought I was, maybe I should just slip away and just hand in my notice.

Dr Louise Newson: [01:06:03] And that happens. And you know, years ago, so about 10 years ago I did some work for West Midlands Police and I know obviously the police force is very close to your heart as well. And I just did half a morning a month. And they wanted me just to talk about menopause and symptoms and they when I first went in, they were talking about policies. And I said, Oh, no, I'm not an HR consultant. I have no idea about policies or pay or any HR things. But what I can do is just inform women. And when I first went, there was about eight women, lovely women, around the table. And they all just said, oh no, hormones means cancer, doesn't it?And I said, no, it doesn't actually. Let me just tell you about all the symptoms because they thought it was just hot flushes. And one by one, they're saying, oh gosh, I was going to hand in my notice or I've come off the beat and now I'm working in an office job because I can't walk. It's really painful. My joints are stiff and I can't lift my grandchildren and put them on the swing. And they were all thinking about their early retirement. And I thought, gosh. And one by one, when they were talking about their experience with their healthcare professional, they're all on antidepressants. So I said, well, maybe you should think about hormones. And then over the months, they would come back and they would talk about, oh my goodness, I'm on hormones and I'm so much better and you should try it, you should it. And at the end of the year, there were hundreds of people in the room and it was like stand-up room only when the last session and everyone was so empowered. And it was just brilliant. We even got the chief constable involved. Because once you see it, you can't unsee it.

Penny Lancaster: [01:07:32] Exactly.

Dr Louise Newson: [01:07:33] But it's getting to that stage, isn't it?

Penny Lancaster: [01:07:36] Well you see so many household names promoting products, you know, health, this is health benefits, you know, this, this cream or this tonic or this thing or that, you know. But we're talking about a product that we're not selling, we're talking about a product that, it's something that we've always produced our entire lives naturally. And why should we be without it? And now, thanks to the work that, you know with the marching to Parliament, with Menopause Mandate, and you know Carolyn Harris, you know, at least we've got the cost down.

Dr Louise Newson: [01:08:20] Yes. It's made a massive difference.

Penny Lancaster: [01:08:23] It's still like one fee for a whole 12 months.

Dr Louise Newson: [01:08:27] But it doesn't include testosterone.

Penny Lancaster: [01:08:28] But it still does not include testosterone. Because someone, I would think it was probably a male, has decided that women don't need that.

Dr Louise Newson: [01:08:37] I know.

Penny Lancaster: [01:08:37] Which is crazy.

Dr Louise Newson: [01:08:37] But you know what, I've spoken to quite a few women who have been fined, so their doctor didn't know it didn't cover testosterone because it's about hormones, so they presumed it was HRT and testosterone. And a husband came up to me recently and said, you know, my wife's just got a fine. And it's about, I can't remember the exact amount, it's either 80 or 100 pounds, it's a lot of money for people and they've had to pay this fine. And they said, we never did it trying to avoid the money, we just thought it was covered.

Penny Lancaster: [01:09:03] A fine for what?

Dr Louise Newson: [01:09:04] Because they got their testosterone for free. And so they then get a letter back with a fine to say, no, it's not covered. You shouldn't have put it through. I know it's really sad. So yeah, so we've still got things that we need to change.

Penny Lancaster: [01:09:20] I mean HRT is hormone replacement therapy. It doesn't say, oh, except, except it doesn't include, it doesn't say that.

Dr Louise Newson: [01:09:27] No, no, but that's the small print, which lots of people don't realise. But it's, what Carolyn Harris and others, and you with the mandate and everybody working together, it's just about awareness and choice. And, you know, what I feel really sad is that HRT prescribing is less than half of what it was 20 years ago when that study came out. You know, it used to be 30% of menopausal women were prescribed hormones in the UK.

Penny Lancaster: [01:09:53] And then the negative report came out and then it scared people away. But has it increased in the last few years?

Dr Louise Newson: [01:09:59] It's gone with all the work that, you know, everyone's been doing the last 10 years or so, it's gone from 10% to 14%. And it's plateaued. The last year, I think we're going back in time, the stories that we hear of doctors refusing has become a lot more. So it's 14% and the last year it's plateaued it's not kept going up.

Penny Lancaster: [01:10:21] Oh that's disappointing to hear.

Dr Louise Newson: [01:10:22] It is, and in the US it was 40% of women who were menopausal before the WHI study, and now the recent figures are about 4% of the women in the US.

Penny Lancaster: [01:10:32] What are we going to do about that?

Dr Louise Newson: [01:10:35] We've just got to keep talking, you know.

Penny Lancaster: [01:10:37] But like, it went down because of that report, so we need a different type of report.

Dr Louise Newson: [01:10:42] Well, the thing is now this is interesting because this was the only randomised controlled study and a lot of people say you have to have randomised controlled studies in medicine. So that means you divide the group into two. You don't know who's having what, half have the real drug and half have placebo and then you see the difference. And that's what they did in that study because they knew HRT was good for women. But they started to give it in women who were older, so the average age in the study was 63. But a lot those women had had heart disease. They were overweight. And they'd had raised blood pressure, and they gave them the synthetic hormones that we know has risks with it. So it was like the wrong type of HRT, the wrong study. So now, if you did a randomised control study with natural hormones, it's not actually ethical because we know there are more benefits than risks with natural hormones. We know they reduce incidence of heart disease and osteoporosis, for example, and improve symptoms. So, if I was menopausal and not taking hormones, I wouldn't want to go into a study because I'd want my hormones. Do you see what I mean? And I wouldn't want to risk, because if I went on placebo, I couldn't work as a doctor. I couldn't be happily married.

Penny Lancaster: [01:11:47] But couldn't they do the test on women that aren't taking it?

Dr Louise Newson: [01:11:50] Yeah. So then, but then what they have done...

Penny Lancaster: [01:11:53] Or those women those women that are afraid to, that are scared to, the women that go to the doctors that refuse to give them, can't they sign up?

Dr Louise Newson: [01:12:02] Yeah, but then it's still hard because then as a doctor, you know, I'm really clear to women that there are risks of not taking hormones, so there are risks for your future health as well. So, but not every study has to be a randomised controlled study. When they discovered that penicillin, you know, antibiotic was good, they didn't say, oh, we're only going to give it as a randomised control study because it was good. So you can do observational data. But the other thing is, we know how the hormones work in our body. Like we've known that for decades. So we know they reduce inflammation. We know they get produced in our brain. We know that for many years we've known that women who have hormones have less depression and less mental health issues. So we just need to join the dots really and then allow women to choose. It's a bit like saying to you, exercise is good for you, but you can choose whether you exercise or not. You know what I mean? And it's the same with hormones. You can choose, whether you take them. But I think the saddest thing of all of this Penny is that women are just not given the choice. You know, the number of women I meet who are on antidepressants compared to hormones, you know.

Penny Lancaster: [01:13:07] Well, I mean, Iget women coming up to me on the school gates or at the Pilates classes and things like that, asking me, you know, so what's going on? What's the latest? I'm thinking of taking it, but I'm not sure. I'm like, why aren't you sure? What is it that, where's the stumbling block? And they still have that little niggly, it might not be good for me. There might be a side effect. I said, why? Why should there be? You've had these hormones in your body your entire life, it's the same thing. It's not a foreign object that your immune system is suddenly going to react to. I mean, I've had an underactive thyroid gland, so I've required, which is another hormone, thyroxine. I've require that since I was 21. So I hated the idea at that age, taking a tablet, but like the doctor said, you won't survive.

Dr Louise Newson: [01:13:54] Yeah. And it's exactly the same. It's just another hormone. But the problem is, when they were discovered, they were commercialised, because people wanted to make money. They always want to get money out of drugs. So they changed the chemical structure. So with your thyroxine, you take levothyroxine, which will be exactly the the same as the thyroxine that I make naturally from my thyroid. With the HRT, you take estradiol, which is a natural form. In the olden days, they used to use a synthetic hormone, which was either made synthetically, like in all the contraceptives, or they used to get it from pregnant horse's urine. I know. Which is awful, isn't it? Yeah, so that was when a lot of the studies were done. So it contains estradiol, but it also contains all sorts of hormones.

Penny Lancaster: [01:14:39] Oh my word.

Dr Louise Newson: [01:14:39] I know. I know. But the drug company patented it. So if you've got a patent for that drug, you don't tell anyone else your formulary, so they wouldn't tell other people what was in that magic urine.

Penny Lancaster: [01:14:51] As long as it's got what you're saying it has in it, forget about the rest.

Dr Louise Newson: [01:14:51] Yeah, yeah, yeah. So once you realise that it's completely different, you know, because you want to replace like with like, and that's all we're doing. But what's really interesting, I think, is that people take contraception really easily, because obviously it works as contraceptive, but it's synthetic. So it has far more risks than taking natural hormones. But you suddenly say to someone HRT and they're thinking, oh, I'm not sure.

Penny Lancaster: [01:15:15] Well, because, of course, that's all you're ever taught about at school. You're not taught about the menopause. You are not taught about how to get pregnant. You're just taught about how not to get pregnant, bees and the birds, you boys, girls, like protect yourself from diseases, protect yourself against getting pregnant. This is how you don't get pregnant and the whole thing of like... I've tried to explain, well the boys understand what menopause is now of course, because they saw mummy go through hell with it and then I needed to explain to them what was wrong and I'm okay now because I've got my hormone replacements. I remember I was in the boys' bathroom and I heard Aiden who was probably about 13, it was like a year ago, and I heard him chatting some of his friends, some of the lads, there was about four them. And they were going, oh, What was, what was Miss doing today? Like, God, dear, she was so snappy and miserable and this and that, and I'm listening going...Hmm and they were chatting away and it seemed like it was an unusual behavioural pattern for her. Anyway, so I popped my head in and I said, boys, how old do you think this teacher is? Oh, I don't know, maybe a little bit younger than you, mum. I went, oh, okay. So Aiden, you've heard this from me, but maybe you could consider that she might be going through her menopause. You know, like mummy had a lot of trouble and you know, you cry more easily, you get, you have less patience and you get anxious andall of those things. So can you imagine the stress the teacher's under and she's feeling that way because of the lack of hormones. And the thing is thatthey teach you boys what happens in puberty and how girls begin their periods. But that's just the beginning of that fertility cycle because at the very end, the full circle is when those periods stop. So you get a rush of the hormones which ignites the body and turns a girl into a woman and her periods begin. But why don't they finish the conversation and say, look, your mums or your aunties or your grandma or someone else might be at the other end of their fertility. And the opposite happens. Their hormones start disappearing. So just, I said, boys, look at the girls of your age, you might say, oh gosh, she was a bit snappy, or she wasn't very nice today was she? Or why was she ran off crying...because it's explained that it's hormones the same with you boys with you get testosterone you can get angry and all those things but they're not explaining the other end so surely that has to be a part of that whole journey?

Dr Louise New: [01:18:10] Absolutely. And it's interesting because I've got three daughters and, you know, a lot of them recognise it in their friend's mothers or their teachers. You know, my 14 year old, a couple of years ago, at one of her schools, she said, oh, mummy, the maths teacher, so obviously, you know, she had to open the window. And there are times when she was really. And it's a real struggle.

Penny Lancaster: [01:18:30] And they're embarrassed about it. And they think the kids are going to giggle, what have you. But if you just be like, look, this is what it is. I remember Aiden, he used to go, hang on, mummy, wait a minute. And he'd open a door and, you know, waft the door back and forth and back and forth to try and cool me down. It was just, it's that taking the stigma and the shame away from it and just going, look this is part of life cycle. Just the same with you kids going through your puberty. This is what adults of my age go through. So we're kind of on the same page. I get what you're going through and I'd like you to be able to understand that what I'm going through and then how many kids can go home like you said to their parents that aren't educated on it to go Dad, I think maybe you should chat to mum, maybe that, you know, like to have the conversation, bring men into the conversation.

Dr Louise Newson: [01:19:15] Having the conversation is so important. And actually, I was in Glasgow, I did an event at a theatre and I got an email today from one of the few men that were in the audience, there were only three men in the audience. And he was ex-army and he said, I'm writing to thank you for everything that you do. But he was, he'd come with his wife and he said, you know, if I hadn't been aware of your work, I wouldn't have been able to help my wife and now she's taking hormones and our whole relationship, everything is completely different. But actually, sometimes you need someone else to advocate for you, not just to recognise the symptoms, but to say, come on, I'll come with you to that doctor or I'll make that appointment with you. Don't take those antidepressants if that's not right for you. Then think about hormones because it's the second part of the conversation that's missing so often, isn't it?

Penny Lancaster: [01:20:03] Well, I mean the idea that 50% are going through the menopause, but actually the other 50%, the men, are going through it with us. They're standing right by our sides scratching their heads and they're panicking and then of course it can very easily end in marriage breaks down and then of course like worse still as you mentioned, suicidal thoughts. But I remember my eldest son, Alastair, he was saying mum, I was at the side of the football pitch Sunday morning and one of the dads came over to me and said, can you thank your mum? Because I know what my wife's going through now.

Dr Louise Newson: [01:20:40] That's nice, isn't it?

Penny Lancaster: [01:20:42] The side of a football pitch where it's like all tough and mud and grit and swearing and all that and they're talking about menopause. And at my police station in the city, I had one of my male officers come up to me and say the same thing, thank you so much for talking about it, now I understand. And I was on one duty where we all have to look smart, be smart, so we have to wear the same uniform. Yes, primarily we have the same uniform, but we have different types, styles of jackets, depending on the weather. And it was a long duty so we were trying to gauge the weather and decide what full uniform we're all going to be in. And they decided on the heavy coat. So I thought, I don't know whether to bring this up, but quietly, not in front for everyone, I went over to one of the sergeants and I said, look. I don't know. I don't want to be treated any differently. I just want you to understand that I'm going through menopause. He went You don't need to go any further. Do you want to wear the lighter jacket? Really?I can do that? He said, of course you can. I said, thank you. He said no, we set up a whole menopausal thing. I was like, whoa.

Dr Louise Newson: [01:21:52] That's really nice isn't it. [01:21:53][0.7]

Penny Lancaster: [01:21:53] Yeah. A male dominated place like that. So it's getting there. It's just slowly. And I think if we don't continue talking about it, it will just drop off, like you say, and there'll be another generation, the next women coming up that are going to be blind to it.

Dr Louise Newson: [01:22:08] I was just on the radio recently and then they dropped me and said, oh, we've spoken enough about the menopause. It's like, really? No, you haven't. I will only stop talking about it when everyone who wants to take hormones is on them. Because it's this14% isn't because only 14% of women want them. It's really not. Every day I am speaking to women who really can't access hormones because they're not seeing a doctor who's been educated and it's really wrong. So the more that everyone works in different ways, than it amplifies the messages, doesn't it?

Dr Louise Newson: [01:22:40] Absolutely. I'm thinking about those health checks that women get with their GPs and the information that's kind of given to them at the right stage. Same with fertility. I have a girlfriend who, you know, is like very career focused and very intelligent girl. But she's 35. And now she's like, babies. And once again, like she said, I only remember being told how not to get pregnant, and now I want... thinking about babies, but maybe I've left it too late and, you know, well go to a doctor and like, but go with a list. You know, they want to be able to see a pattern of like, when did you have your last period? Are your periods regular? How many... You've got to write a list of these things. The same with the menopause, go in with a list of your symptoms and how often you have these symptoms. And if it's a particular time in a month, you feel worse and, you know, you have to go, you know, armed with material.

Dr Louise Newson: [01:23:39] Yeah, and that makes a real difference. That's one of the reasons that I created Balance app, you know, the free app. It's got all the symptoms there. People can then create a health report and go and say, look, these are my symptoms. And actually for me as a doctor, everyone does it who comes to the clinic. And it means you can look very quickly and you can go, oh, yes. And then sometimes people say, oh I haven't got many symptoms. I look at their list and I say, well, what about your vaginal dryness? What about your joint pain? Oh, oh yeah, I forgot about that. And the whole conversation starts then.

Penny Lancaster: [01:24:07] Because it's that you got go away afterwards and you go oh I forgot to mention this, forgot to mention that. Oh yeah, oh gosh.

Dr Louise Newson: [01:24:15] So tell me about your book. It's amazing that you've written such a long book. It's so brilliant. It is so easy to read as well.

Penny Lancaster: [01:24:23] Being dyslexic.

Dr Louise Newson: [01:24:23] I know well having dyslexia and writing and like you say, reading it out.

Penny Lancaster: [01:24:27] Reading, doing the audio as well, which was particularly challenging. I called it Someone Like Me because, yes, it's a story about me, but it's also a story that so many other women, men even have gone through a lot of the experiences that I've gone through. Whether it's bullying, whether it's dyslexia, whether its being a victim of crime, pregnancy, fertility, IVF, menopause, you know, all of those things. So yeah, it is the journey from, from my childhood and by writing it, I've dug really deep into detail about the events I've gone through in my life, some of them traumatic. But it's amazing how I've realised that I've gained skills, you know, just when you think you're in the worst place, you don't think there's any positive from that you can get from that. Actually, you turn another page and another chapter, and before you know it the other experiences you have later in adulthood, you maybe wouldn't have been able to get through had you not gone through those things as a child.

Dr Louise Newson: [01:25:36] I totally agree with that and sometimes at very dark times there comes lightness but you don't know it at the time or resilience or strength, you can't be strong if you've not been pushed over before and so there's I think also people, it's so easy to look at you, you know, look at, you're married to Rod, you've got everything you like, have got a lovely family but it's not always been easy and I think for somebody to just share their back story, it takes quite a lot of courage, actually, but it helps people resonate. Doesn't it?

Penny Lancaster: [01:26:06] It does. It helps people resonate, connect with you and know that, well, if she's been able to make this of herself, you know, when I was told that I wouldn't make anything of myself when I were at school, a teacher once told my father. And so I never thought I was ever going to be good at anything. But then when I met Rod, he, you know, much older than me, had a bit more life experience and he recognised a side of me that I hadn't seen. And he said, you're great at this. You're so good at communicating and your thoughts and you're so great with the kids and you've got this empathy and understanding and you always see things from other people's perspective and you can use that and channel that. And I was like, didn't think of those as talents or skills. But of course in policing.

Dr Louise Newson: [01:26:58] It's massive.

Penny Lancaster: [01:26:59] Yeah, I've really sort of tapped into things and like bullying, realising, of course, there's bullies in adulthood, in the workplace. And you come across those and I've learned to recognise it. And I've learnt to rise above it and do, you know, um, deescalate is my key thing and you know in the end of the day, karma will come round. But if you just, just keep giving kindness and love and take care of yourself. There's no need to attack, just defend yourself.

Dr Louise Newson: [01:27:30] And it takes a lot of bravery and courage to do that, actually, but also a lot of...

Penny Lancaster: [01:27:36] Patience.

Dr Louise Newson: [01:27:37] Patience. But also a lot of kindness, because the more I think about bullies, I realise they're not kind and they're probably not happy. [01:27:44][6.3]

Penny Lancaster: [01:27:44] They're not happy, that's the key. [01:27:45][1.3]

Dr Louise Newson: [01:27:46] It's not my fault they're not happy or your fault they are not happy and I don't think anything that we can do as victims will make them happy actually. [01:27:52][6.8]

Penny Lancaster: [01:27:54] Well if you if you show suffering, it's kind of given them... [01:27:57][3.5]

Dr Louise Newson: [01:27:58] They're winning. [01:27:58][0.2]

Penny Lancaster: [01:27:59] They're winning. Yeah. So as hard as it is to suffer quietly somewhere else, you know, but of course, express it to your loved ones and you know, obviously as kids, it's not a conversation you can have with those bullies, but they will recognise it in themselves and they know they're doing wrong ultimately. And more often than not, you find them in groups. It's only as the true, the centre of that group, maybe the true bully that's instigated it will end up continuing to have thatpattern because their needs haven't been met and they become that adult bully. When they're older, but yeah, karma does come and get you, I think, in the end.

Dr Louise Newson: [01:28:42] I think it does, but it can take a while and sometimes it's really difficult to understand.

Penny Lancaster: [01:28:47] Too many people can suffer along the way as well.

Dr Louise Newson: [01:28:49] Yeah, I think so.

Penny Lancaster: [01:28:50] Then people do need to be called out. And I think more and more is being done in a workplace to kind of not suffer people in a powerful position allowing people to get away with stuff these days.

Dr Louise Newson: [01:29:04] I think I think it's important and you know there's so many different types of bullying and even you know I employ a lot of doctors and most of us have worked in quite difficult circumstances and been unable to speak out because these people are our bosses or they're going to give us our references or whatever and it's no different in medicine to other professions but but I think also the most important thing is having a good network of people around you people that youcan trust and make you feel good and you your family, certainly do that, don't they?

Penny Lancaster: [01:29:33] Family, my friends and hubby. And yeah, I'm very lucky in that respect, very lucky.

Dr Louise Newson: [01:29:40] So, oh I'm just so grateful that you're so open, but before we end, I always ask for three take-home tips and I am just going to ask three really simple questions, three things why people should buy this book.

Penny Lancaster: [01:29:49] Someone Like Me is an expression of hope and gratitude and I've already had so much positive reaction from people and I hope it just resonates and gives guidance and makes people feel like they're not alone and I think it kind of touches people in different ways. But it's been good for me and I'm hope it's good for others.

Dr Louise Newson: [01:30:17] Well, you've already had such great feedback, of course it is, and just thank you so much for all your energy and love. Thank you.

Dr Louise Newson: [01:30:22] Thank you very much, Louise. Cheers.