Dr Louise Newson [00.00.00] This is the most impactful podcast I've done. I want you to listen to it, but I also want you to share it with as many people as possible. I interviewed Jay and Hayley. So Jay is Hayley's son. Hayley has been in and out of psychiatric hospitals for 27 years. She's had postnatal psychosis. She's had PMDD, premenstrual dysphoric disorder. She's had awful depression, treatment resistant depression. She's had various antidepressants, numerous antipsychotics. She's had ECT, electroconvulsive therapy. She's also been told she might have dementia, and she's taken to alcohol for many, many years, but because she was also menopausal, I managed to persuade the psychiatrist to prescribe some hormones for her, and you will see and hear the difference. We need to get this story out more, and I'm really grateful that they came today. But I want you to not just listen to it, but reflect on it and think about the injustice of women who aren't so lucky as Hayley because they don't have a son like Jay. Enjoy it.

Dr Louise Newson [00:01:16] Hayley, Jay, both of you. I've not done a double podcast before, like I feel like you're almost interviewing me, but it's great. I am. I am really excited about this podcast. I don't want to put pressure on you, but I've been thinking about this for a long time, and the timing feels right, and like there's, there's quite a few patients that are really memorable, but I am never, ever going to forget both of you, and I'm never going to forget that email that I got from you. So I'm just really grateful that you're here to share your experience because, well, lots of reasons, but the big thing that's going to change health of women going forwards is women helping women and women talking, and men talking and others talking. It's not about me, it's not about what I think. It's not about what I've read. It's about real people. And I went into medicine to help people, not patients, but people. And I'm very privileged that I can do that in my job, but it's still somehow not getting through. Hormones are just thought of as something for hot flushes, something that might help a little bit. But I often say to people that the work I do is transformational, and they look at me like I'm a bit weird, but you have been transformed, and I just want others to hear about it. So Jay, tell me about the email that you sent me.

Jay [00:02:41] It was the Instagram message first, wasn't it? So we, I'd heard from a family friend, she said, “I’ve been listening to Louise's podcast, and give it a give it a listen.” So, at that point, my mum was sort of three months, three, four months into her hospital admission, and I gave the podcast a listen, and everything just really resonated. And it all made sense. I sent the, sent the message on Instagram, and you replied, that was bank holiday. May bank holiday? And you replied straight away. We followed it up with an email to just explain my mum's story as quickly as I could. And then we jumped on the jumped on a call, and we started working straight away to get my mum the hormones that she needed.

Dr Louise Newson [00:03:34] Yeah. So when you spoke to me, you told me about your mum, and obviously Hayley you were in a hospital, but it was a psychiatric hospital.

Hayley [00:03:46] Yeah, yeah.

Dr Louise Newson [00:03:46] But you’d not just been in a psychiatric hospital for three months, had you? ‍

Hayley [00:03:50] No, no, I've been in them since 1995.

Dr Louise Newson [00:03:59] That's a long time, isn't it, because when you were growing up, you were, you fit well, you're working you….

Hayley [00:04:07] Yeah, yeah.

Dr Louise Newson [00:04:09] Quite a sparkle in your eyes and like….

Hayley [00:04:12] Yeah. A bit too overconfident at times, I would say. But yeah, it was after, well, my first depression and bit of a psychosis was when I was 17, but I had had a termination when I was in my late 16s.

Dr Louise Newson [00:04:31] Right.

Hayley [00:04:32] So whether again..  

Dr Louise Newson [00:04:36] was related to that.

Hayley [00:04:36] Mmm-hmm.

Dr Louise Newson [00:04:37] And then you've got three children now, and when you were pregnant, did you feel okay mentally?

Hayley[00:04:42] Yeah, yeah, I did, yeah.

Dr Louise Newson [00:04:45] But then after having the babies, your mood dropped, didn't it?

Hayley [00:04:50] Yeah, it did. And with my first one Christian, it wasn't as bad. Lewis, sorry, it wasn't as bad. But when he was maybe eight months, I felt low and depressed. But after Christian in ‘95 he was born in May, and at October, Halloween that year, I decided people were out to kill me and just horrendous thoughts. And the doc, I tried to run up the road in my underwear to escape the house, and just really totally lost it.

Dr Louise Newson [00:05:27] So were you section then?

Hayley [00:05:29] I wasn't sectioned. I went into a Sheffield hospital on the psychiatric ward, but I was in there for two and a half weeks. Then I was let back out, but it's the first time I was put on antipsychotics.

Dr Louise Newson [00:05:42] Do you remember being put on the antipsychotics?

Hayley [00:05:47] Not really, because a lot of the time when I'm in hospital, until I'm starting to feel better, it's all a kind of fuzzy blur. It's, it's not, I don't remember all of it that well, but, and then, of course, after Jay in 2000 he was only two months, and it all happened and flared up again. And then I was in hospital for two and a half months on a different ward, but they were trying to get me into the Nottingham mother and baby unit, but there wasn't any room. So again, I was kind of separated from him, and family and friends helped out. But….

Dr Louise Newson [00:06:31] Did anyone talk about hormones then?

Hayley [00:06:32] Never, never, ever mentioned that time. I didhave ECT again for the first time.

Dr Louise Newson [00:06:39] So that's electroconvulsive therapy. Do you remember having that or them talking about it?

Hayley [00:06:44] Yeah, because I can remember them saying they didn't do it at the unit I was in, which was Nether Edge Sheffield. They did it at the Northern General Hospital. So, I can remember going in the taxi with a nurse to have it done. And it did work really quickly. I thought, oh, brilliant, I'm better again. But looking back, I wasn't, properly better, if you know, I mean, I was fighting to get off the ward.

Dr Louise Newson [00:07:14] Yeah course.

Hayley [00:07:14] So displaying it that I was, Yeah, I'm fine. I can kind of go home now, but I'd been on that admission, I'd been very, very high, and then kind of slumped very low, and I fed all three and with Jay, I was still, like, lactating on the ward and everything, I think my hormones were...

Dr Louise Newson [00:07:39] Were all over, yeah.

Hayley [00:07:40] But, but again, nothing was ever picked up on or suggested or they just called it um, post puerperal psychosis or postpartum.

Dr Louise Newson [00:07:53] and then you had your periods after they came back, but you, you always felt something wasn't right before your periods, didn't you?

Hayley [00:08:03] Yeah, yeah.

Dr Louise Newson [00:08:04] How, how did that affect you?

Hayley [00:08:07] Just very angry and panicky and panic attacks. And I mean, on one occasion, and I hate that Jay wasn't aware of that. I don't think he was even born, but I threw a wine bottle through a window in the kitchen, in like just a rage. I don't think Christian can remember that, but Lewis can remember that.

Dr Louise Newson [00:08:30] That's hard, isn't it.

Hayley [00:08:32] When a period came, I’d think, oh, thank God for that. And I said that to Baz, my ex-husband last night, probably because of that, you know, when you wake up the next morning and relive if you've kicked off and caused a scene. And so, I think years ago, if I'd been given things, I might have calmed down and not had like a volatile temper.

Dr Louise Newson [00:08:58] But when you went, because you've seen so manypsychiatrists haven’t you?

Hayley [00:09:01] Oh gosh, yeah, yeah.

Dr Louise Newson [00:09:02] Did anyone talk to you about your periods?

Hayley [00:09:04] Never, ever.

Dr Louise Newson [00:09:05] Does that surprise you? With what you knownow?

Hayley [00:09:09] Absolutely, yeah, yeah. Definitely. Um, but asJay was saying when he this time tried to get help. It took him a while forthem to even listen to him and kind of say, well, fair enough, we'll give it atry.

Dr LouiseNewson [00:09:30] Yeah, yeah.

Jay[00:09:30] And that was the thing. I mean, we'd got, we'd been told at that point, some 30 years later, that you were treatment resistant to antipsychotics, antidepressants, which, that was the first time from a psychiatrist. Would, you know, they admitted that. So we tried the ECT on the basis it had worked years ago, but you had 12 sessions of that, and, you know, it failed to do anything. So at that point, I was like...

Dr Louise Newson [00:09:55] What else?

Jay [00.09.56] What else, because you were put on Clozapine, which, you know, they said…

Hayley [00:10:00] Clozapine left me just very not in the real world, just I was on, you said Hayley's world, didn't you? Because I was so...

Jay [00:10:10] It was, you were, just numb to everything. Youknow, you don't remember any time you were on the Clozapine.

Hayley[00:10:14] I mean, since being on the HRT, my mum and dad died, both within the last fiveyears, I didn't attend either of the funerals because I couldn't, which I'llregret for the rest of my life. But there's nothing I can do about it. The HRT,I've actually cried, which I've not done for years, so,and it's just amazing to think, because before I cried at the dropof a hat. You know, if something was sad, I'd be the first one to cry, but foryears, I've just been so cold and flat.

Dr LouiseNewson [00:10:49] Yeah, and that's very interesting, because alot of people say that when they're on medications or antidepressants orantipsychotics, that they feel numb so they don't experience sadness, but theydon't experience joy, but actually sometimes it's not a bad thing to feel sadand to be upset, because then when you feel happy, it's even better, but to bethis sort of flat lining, but for you, Jay, like, I mean, I feel really badasking you these questions, but I just want people to try and understand,because you've been affected. You've been in and out of psychiatric hospitals.You've seen countless psychiatrists. Your life's obviously been affected. But,for you, you've not really grown up with your mum being at home, have you?

Jay [00:11:32] No, it hasn't been. Yeah, my mum's been absenta lot of the years. And whilst you know when you have been well and at alltimes you've, you know, we know you've loved us and we've, all three of me andmy brothers have turned out to be kind, caring people, but,yeah, it's been, it's been very hard. And I was always sort of, you know,comparing my mum to other mums growing up. Because I was like, why can my mumnot be, you know, working and well. Andyou know, now it really frustrates me that all along, you know, had had my mumbeing given, you know, her hormones back after, after childbirth that I wouldhave, you know, we may have, you know, my mum would have most likely kept acareer. You know….

Hayley [00:12:21] I kind of turned to drink to mask a lot of itas well, which the boys saw, and then your dad did as well. So that wasn't ahealthy thing going on. But Jayfrom being I mean, I remember watching him at 11 years of age, wrapping his ownChristmas presents because I were like, dithering around. And, you know, it'sjust awful things like that. And because the other two were older than Jay andwent off to uni, Jay became the parent, and is very mature for his years. And Ithink because of that.

Jay [00:12:59] I think, yeah, it's lookingback now. It's had its positives, but it could have easily gone the other way….

Dr Louise Newson [00:13:04] Oh yeah, you are completely strong. And I wastalking about this earlier, actually, to my husband, that I worry about theeffects of changing hormones, notjust on the person. Obviously, I worry about people, but it's, it's the rippleeffect. So, it's partners. We know that divorce rates increase, but it's thechildren. And I worry about domestic abuse. I worry about what children areseeing and listening to and hearing and having to put up with, because how doyou ask? How do you ask for help when you're 11 and you're wrapping up your ownpresents and your mum's drinking?

Jay [00:13:37] Oh absolutely, I mean, I was fortunate thatI'd, I'd got my Nan and your, your mum, reallydid help. But similarly, you know, you have recollections that it does getpassed down. This, this...

Hayley [00:13:53] My mum used to be terrible around her period.

Dr LouiseNewson [00:13:57] Did she?

Hayley[00:13:57] Yeah, and we'd kind of, she'd go into, like, a little zombie mode and, and we all thought, because at the time, she was having some sleeping tablets, as kids, we decided, oh, she was taking them all at once, and it was making her…… but looking back, she did well as she got older didn’t she?

Jay [00:14:18] She did. Yeah, as a Grandma she did.

Hayley [00:14:20] Yeah.

Dr Louise Newson [00:14:21] You see, we see that,though, because sometimes it's a change in hormone levels, not just theabsolute level. Do you see what I mean? Because the brain likes things thesame. So, when you're having your periods, your hormone levels drop beforeevery period. Some people don't notice the change. Lots of people just feel abit flat, bit fed up. But some people feel really bad, as you know, but it'sthe same in the perimenopause, when your hormones are fluctuating like that,that's where people can really have a worse time. And in menopause, if hormonelevels are low with time, the brain might accommodate and change. And, I wasreading a book…. I am a bit strangefrom 1871, long time ago by a physician called Edward Tilt. And he wrote aboutthe mental health component of the crisis time before the change. So, he, theydidn't know about hormones, but they knew when periods stopped, women calmeddown. And he was talking about prisons, actually. And he was writing that some women turn to crime because of the way they feel, and we know that's still happening now. But he said some women, some 20 years later, have been released from prison and they have not committed another crime, then they've calmed down. And I thought, actually you can see that, because their hormones have declined, and he was so frustrated the way he wrote, because he wanted to help people. He was giving them Belladonna; he was giving them morphine. He didn't know what to do, but he got it and understood it, whereas now it's like its people don't even associate mental health with hormones and periods, and it's so obvious when you sort of know what's happening. But so we spoke, didn't we? And you reached out, and you were in an NHS hospital, and so we managed to persuade the psychiatrist to prescribe, didn't we?

Jay [00:16:16] We did eventually. I mean, the first I remember the ward round, and I sort of said, I've been listening to Dr Newson’s podcast, and, you know, I'm questioning if this could be hormones. And the answer was, this is not hormones. Tell me how you think it's hormones. I said, well, my mum generally got unwell when she'd had her children, and they said yes, but then it happened after the after children? I said, yes, and there's a cycle there, that was at the time I think you just finished your ECT as well. So, yeah, we carried on persuading. And fortunately there was a female psychiatrist that you spoke to, and eventually, you know,they agreed, the, the lowest doses, if you like, with testosterone added as well.

Hayley [00:17:06] Yeah, I got the gel and the patches.

Jay [00:17:09] And the tablet on the night that you have.

Hayley [00.17.12] Yeah, I think just one patch to begin with,but I was kind of still in la-la land.

Dr Louise Newson [00:17:18] Well they thought you might dementiaas well, didn't they?

Hayley [00:17:21] Apparently, on a scan, there is a little bit of, what is it called?

Jay [00:17:26] They did a scan, and it was showing some grey area. And, you know, in a ward round, they said, there's a chance your mum's got Frontotemporal dementia, to which I told the family, and we were kind of, you know, we thought, I thought this was, you know, this was the final part of the of the illness, and I really didn't expect anything to recover from there. Obviously, it was, it was being questioned at the time, but I do feel that if we hadn't got you on hormones, you would have followed the pattern of what is dementia. You know, you you're unable to communicate.

Hayley [00:18:02] Social workers and whatever, were kind of pushing for assisted living and showing me videos where, I mean, I look a lot older than my age. I'm, like, 57 and a half, and they were all about late 70s80s, and I didn't want to go and live in assisted living. And then, you know, be like, kind of popped into that box by the...

Dr Louise Newson [00:18:25] No. I remember talking to psychiatrists and saying, look, you know, you're in your 50s, so you're menopausal. I have no idea how much is related. It seems like some of it probably is, because I've seen a lot of people in the past, and the story, like you say, the postnatal psychosis, the PMDD, some of it's going to be related to hormones, but for your bones, for your heart, there are still benefits. The guidelines are clear that we should be giving hormones first line, for women if they want them, for menopause. So, I said you can carry on with your psychiatric, but you can carry on with the dementia bit. But I just feel that you should to prescribe, in fair play to her, she did prescribe them, and they did blood tests, actually, didn't they, and we could see that you weren't absorbing them very much. And then I thought they'd never give testosterone, but they did give testosterone, and we know, and it's been known for many years, decades, that testosterone can improve wellbeing and can improve mental health as well as physical health. So, and then we had to wait, because we have to wait with hormones, and that's the hardest bit, because I'm quite impatient. And we were on holiday where I took my children to Barcelona at Christmas time, and they were in a flea market, like finding tops for like a Euro, and very excited. So, I'm obviously on my phone, and I started crying, and they were like, what's going on, mummy? And I still just had this picture, what? And I showed them, and it was you with a Christmas cracker, and do you remember, you showed me a picture? And they were like, yeah, it's a lady. I said no, but her son hasn't had a Christmas like this before.

Hayley [00:20:12] No, he’s not because most of the Christmases to get through Christmas and panic about, oh my god, it's Christmas. I'll never cope. Obviously, extra drink was brought into the house because it was Christmas. So that would be me kind of every Christmas Eve afternoon, thinking I'm not having a drink tonight because I want to be aware of Christmas morning. And I'd just go and get sloshed and think, so, yeah.

Dr Louise Newson [00:20:34] And then we've obviously come quite close just to help, and things have just got better today.

Hayley [00:20:43] Fingers crossed. I always panic, but yeah.

Dr Louise Newson [00:20:46] Well, no one knows the future, like live for today. And you know, I hope you don't mind saying, but you know, you both went to see Robbie Williams, like, who would have thought even a year ago that would have happened?

Hayley [00:20:59] Never, ever would it have happened. And I went with both Christian and Jay. We stayed in London a couple of nights at Christian’s. We walked down massive stairs to get to the gig. And I get really bad vertigo. And it was just brilliant. All of it...

Jay [00:21:19] Stood amongst, you know, in the, quite in the middle of the standing stadium with, you know, 50, 60,000 people around you and eventually got into it and dancing and singing to the music. And it's, yeah, it's just, you know, when you look back a year ago.

Hayley [00:21:35] I can't believe I mean, I live in fear of going back on the wards. I hate them. The first two or three times I went in, I was much, much younger, and it was like, because I was so high, it was like being in a club with your friends type thing, or you'd make friends with the patients and but they're not nice places.

Dr Louise Newson [00:21:56] No, no, they're not. I mean, I've done a lot of Psychiatry in Manchester, quite inner city and actually, that was in the early 90s. But then about 18 months ago, I went to go and visit one of my patients, who, it was when there was an HRT shortage. Her GP said, you don't need it anymore. And her husband reached out to me and said, I'm really worried about her." So, I jumped in the car, and she was so freaked out seeing me, she didn't expect me to do this on a Sunday, But I was looking around, I was thinking, God, this could be in 1992 like it just, it's so sparse. They do a ward round once a week, but what you're supposed to do the rest of the time its- it was awful. And I'd just like to add, I've spoken to her recently, and she is amazing, but it's taken along time with her because she didn't want the testosterone. And in my clinical experience, it's the testosterone that makes the biggest difference. And a lot of women, I think, have been low in testosterone for a long time. So, it takes a while for all those cells to work and regenerate, especially in the brain. But you know, you're not drinking, are you?

Hayley [00:23:05] I've had the odd one, but, not I'm not. No.

Dr Louise Newson [00:23:10] But that's huge though, Hayley to have gone through….‍

Hayley [00:23:14] You know I’ve come off cigarettes again, I've been having the odd one, but I'm trying to get off them totally. But, yeah, drink controlled me for years, along with my hormones and maybe some mental health, what I do have or hasn't been treated as it should have been. So….

Dr Louise Newson [00:23:36] It’s amazing. And you know, there will be people listening to this thinking, yeah, they're going to say it's hormones. Of course they are, but there's nothing else that's changed. We've not changed, we are going to start gradually reducing some of your other medication, but we haven't changed anything.

Jay [00:23:53] And those, those psychiatric medications, are the ones that you've been on for, you know, given that they have been changed. But the, you know, the sertraline, olanzapine, lithium, you've been on them….

Hayley [00:24:04] Since 2004.

Jay [00:24:06] So you know I don't, I don't believe it's a psychiatric….

Hayley [00:24:12] The olanzapine. The people who came to give memy meds they'll come in and they'll put them in a pot for me at, say, halfseven, quarter to eight, and they'll say, you're taking them, or they used todo and I'd say, well no, because if I take them now, I'll be in bed for like,eight o'clock, so I’ll wait and take them at 10/11o'clock. Then I get themunchies, then I'm in the kitchen raiding for food, like really being hungry.

Jay [00:24:41] And the restless legs. That was the othernight. You said – I hate that it gets to 10/11 o'clock, and your legs arerestless. And that doesn't happen through the day, when, yeah, you know.

Dr LouiseNewson [00:24:52] I mean, they have side effects. We know theyhave side effects because they're chemicals, aren't they, and they can bebeneficial as well.

Hayley [00:24:59] I mean they’ve helped don’t get me wrong butdon’t get me wrong by not running up the road in my underwear type thing.

Dr Louise Newson [00:25:04] Well that’s good! And this is what I'm tryingto really let people understand that lots of medications have a role, but wecan't keep ignoring hormones. You know, you might always need some psychiatric medication. I have no way of knowing,of course, that we have no way. We can't go back in the past and say, if you'dalways had hormones, would you have needed? We don't know, but what we do knownow is that you are so much better, and it's been a while, it's not just aquick thing and it's a gradual improvement, which has just been amazing towatch and see. But the biggest thing that really upsets me is that you stillcan't get the hormones that you need from the NHS.

Hayley [00.25.47] Absolutely.

Dr Louise Newson [00:25:48] And, but you can get all these other drugs.You can get lithium; you can get olanzapine. But why can't you get your naturalhormones? I don't, I just don't get it. And I go from being really sad toreally cross, because it's 2025, we've known for decades that hormones helpwith mental health. We know that some women need different doses just to absorbthrough the skin, and we know that you're better, and you know you're such anadvocate for your mum and you're going through so many layers of complaints andproblems.

Jay [00:26:23] Absolutely.

Dr Louise Newson [00:26:24] But it doesn't. It doesn't feel right, does it?

Jay [00:26:26] No, and it's really frustrating. And unfortunately, you know, we've had the help from you where, you know, I get, you know, you respond to me within, generally, a few hours. And you know, and so warm to us. You know, my mum says, you we're comfortable when we're when we're speaking to you, but when I speak to, unfortunately, some of the GPS and whatnot, they're very cold with us. And, you know, we don't get the how are you? We didn't we don't get that. It's kind of, you can't have your hormones .I'm following the guidelines.

Hayley [00:26:57] They're a bit naffed off aren’t they? They can't admit. Yeah, people do well on HRT.

Dr Louise Newson [00:27:02] But isn't it weird? Like, do you know what I mean? My husband's a reconstructive surgeon, and years ago, as a training to bedoctor, you do, like, a minor injuries course, so you learn, like, how to do little sutures, you know, just like tiny lumps and bumps remove. And I was like a little kid coming home from school to show him my work, and there was this little patchwork thing, and I could show him. He looked at it, he went, that was the wrong suture material. That's a mess. I hope you never do that in real life. And I could have got really annoyed, but he was right, actually. And he is amazing as a surgeon, but I will respect him and say, wow, isn't that incredible? You can do that, and I can't. Like he's fine. We're allowed to be different, and we're allowed to learn. And you know, when I was doing psychiatry, I didn't know about hormones, but I live with regret that I didn't, but I can't change the past, but you learn, and it's just this sort of blanket. No, you can't.

Jay [00:27:57] I mean, you, you'd sent a letter, you'd given your personal phone number. And then when I eventually got to speak to the GP, you know, they said, well, Louise is a specialist, I'm not. I do a bit of everything. And I said, so, why aren't you responding? You know, why can't you respond to Louise and learn, learn from you know, she's a colleague, isn't she to you and it's sharing, learning and educating. And then, you know, like, I say that she said to me, maybe you mums illness has always been hormones and, you know, just said it off the cuff. And I'm kind of like, yes, but that's 30years of suffering because of, you know, and it does, it does frustrate methat, and I appreciate there's not been anybody like you to advocate for, for this but….

Hayley [00:28:44] It is a really sad situation. I mean, I'vestopped driving, what, five, six years ago, because in my mind, I kept thinkingI just want to drive into an oncoming lorry and torture myself. But then in later years, when I got my grandchildren, I began having thoughts about mygrandchildren, so I didn't want to be around them, which they've been to stay for two weekends.

Dr Louise Newson [00:29:10] And they want to come more?

Hayley [00:29:11] Yeah, yeah. But I mean, they're a handful, man, I'm a lot older than when my kids were little, but you boys were quitewell behaved. I was lucky in that sense.

Dr Louise Newson [00:29:23] But you love being with them which you were scared of being with them before.

Hayley [00:29:26] Absolutely, I used to work in play groups when I was younger, and then suddenly I couldn't be near children. I didn't want to be because of horrible thoughts that were manifesting, and fingers crossed, they're kind of going so.

Dr Louise Newson [00:28:39] Yeah, it's amazing. But you know you are just two people out of how many globally, and that's what we've got to try and change for future generations. So I'm really grateful. I really am, honestly, because I know it's massive thing that you've come here, both of you to share, but I know that you've done it to help others and that’s really important. So I usually ask for three take home tips, but I can't ask for one and a half each, so I'm going to ask for two each, if that's okay. So I'll ask shall I. Who wants to go first? Do you want to go first? Bring it on.

Hayley [00:30:17] Whatever you're feeling. Please don't keep it to yourself. Please go to GP, and, you know, really plead with them for help.And don't just stay at home. Jay laughs when I say, my dressing gown days because I rarely bathed, I didn't want to get dressed and totally let myselfgo. And the other one, please don't turn to alcohol, because, though at the time you're drinking it, you think it's helping and masking things. It's not.It's just leaving you feeling worse the next day, whittling. Am I over the limit driving the boys to school? And just don't, just please help yourself and get to the doctors.

Dr Louise Newson [00:31:03] Thank you. Jay?

Jay [00:31:05] I've spoke to multiple men now at work, etc, who have said, that's what my mum suffered with. That's or that's what my wife suffered with after her children. We need to talk about it more and remove the taboo from it, accept that. You know, if you've got a headache, you take paracetamol, and if you've got a hormone imbalance, you need your hormones and it yeah, my second, my second advice would be, you know, if it is postnatal, I understand that the the first line treatment is still to be put on antidepressants, antipsychotics, mood stabilisers. Question is it hormones? Because, you know, from my mum's experience, I feel like a lot of the time, itis.

Dr Louise Newson [00:31:52] Great advice, great tips, and just thank you.

Hayley [00:31:55] Great help from you. Thank you very very much.

Jay [00:31:56] Yeah thank you Louise. You've saved my mum's life. And that's you know.

Hayley [00:32:00] Jay always tells me that, be like Louise!

Jay [00:32:03] No, you have you've saved my mum's life, and now you know were I think we're on the mission with you to save other other women's lives.

Dr Louise Newson [00:31:13] Yeah, but we're gonna have our work cut out, but that's all right. Thank you.

Jay [00:32:17] Thank you.