Dr Louise Newson: [01:00:00] Today, my podcast is really for partners as well as for women who are experiencing symptoms. So I've got Joe Warner with me, whose new book is called Burning Up, Frozen Out. And it's really about how you can help if your partner is experiencing symptoms, how you can be their advocate, how you can help them, how you can support them and how you can take them to the doctor to receive the treatment that they usually want as well.

Dr Louise Newson: [01:00:27] So this is really exciting. I'm meeting you for the first time, Joe, and I'm holding your book. It feels like this is a long time coming. And for those of you listening, it's called Burning Up, Frozen Out. And it's got a woman and a man sleeping back to back in a bed. So you reached out to me, how long ago was it now?

Joe Warner: [01:00:48] I think we probably spoke about this time last year, it goes to show how long the whole book research and publishing, it takes an awful long time. And I wanted to write this book basically because I went out and tried to find it and it didn't exist and you know, that spirit of if it doesn't exist, go out there and create it. That's what I did. I took the bull by the horns and you were one of the first people I wanted to speak to because I'd been following you on Instagram for a while. And it's always that, you know you've got a couple of big names you want to interview for a book like this. You were very generous with your time. And I think, I'm not quite sure you realised just how important that interview was for me, because I've done lots of interviews. I've been a journalist for 20 years. I've spoken to an awful lot of people from all different walks of life. But I'd never really been at a project like this where I knew nothing. I'd covered men's health and fitness for a long time and men had become sort of very simple creatures in, in my mind, you know, if you want to build muscle or burn fat, it's basically about lifting weights or what you eat. But then I discovered hormones, and specifically female hormones, and it was quite terrifying until we had that conversation. And I think something you said to me, and I've actually put it in the book where I quote you, where you talk about how perimenopause took you by surprise, and it almost just took the weight of the world off my shoulders. Like if you...

Dr Louise Newson: [01:02:05] Did it?

Joe Warner: [01:02:05] Yeah, absolutely, because I knew nothing, and I felt, I think like a lot of men, a bit of sort of guilt and shame that I didn't know this and I should know it. And it makes it quite difficult to reach out of your reaching out from a position of vulnerability or you're admitting that you don't know something. So having that conversation with you was like, oh my God, if you don't know, then I've got absolutely no chance of knowing. And it sort of set me free a little bit to go off and go, okay, I can completely go with an open mind and there's no such thing as a stupid question and I'm gonna get things wrong, but I'm going to ask amazing people sensible questions and then try and distil their expertise into advice that will work for the average man.

Dr Louise Newson: [01:02:43] It's really important because I spoke to someone this morning actually and she was saying, she's in her 30s and she said, so many of my friends Louise are really scared of perimenopause. They think it's going to happen soon. I said, it probably is. And they said, but they're really scared. And that's a real shame actually because people are scared of uncertainty or they're scared of what they don't know. And it's always been so simplistic actually where people think menopause is very binary. Either you have a period or you don't have periods as a woman and that's really about it or it's about flushes or sweats and up until sort of 12 years ago really that's all I thought really when if someone came to see me as a patient who hadn't had a period for a couple of years they're in their 50s they're having symptoms it's very easy. I'd give them hormones you know what I mean? And it was only when I sat in someone's clinic and I said to them look, how do you know someone's perimenopausal? And he went, oh, it's really obvious to me, you can just tell. I was like, oh really. And around that time was when I started to experience symptoms. And I said to you when we spoke, it was about six months of having really awful symptoms actually, like close to giving up my job and really hating my husband. We were talking about it recently actually, because he was saying how hard it was for him at the time. And we're really solid. We're very lucky because I've known him since I was 18. So it would take a lot for anything to happen really in a big way to our relationship. But I had this demon in my head, like giving me permission to be as rude as, rude as I could to him and it didn't matter. He's there thinking, well, who's this person? And how does he talk about it? And so fast forward six months, obviously I worked out what's going on. I got on hormones, realised I was a lot better, but I still have got this thing that if he'd known more information. Rather than just trying to keep out of my way, which is what he was doing, or sleep like this, where we were just back to each other. And when I had night sweats, I was creeping out of the bed thinking, I can't wake him up and I put a towel on the sheets so didn't have to strip the bed. And he was concerned in the morning because I often said, I think I've got lymphoma, a type of cancer, like I didn't think about night sweats, hormones. Like why, I don't know. But if he had, his brain wasn't gone to mush like mine. So if he knew, you know, then what he knows now, he could have calmly said to me, you know that night sweat you're getting, you're 45. Do you think maybe it could be your hormones? You know, I've read something, then that conversation would have, you know, and that's where the importance of your book and all the work is really, isn't it?

Joe Warner: [01:05:20] Absolutely. And that's something we touch upon very early on in the book is that it might be happening to your partner, but you're the lookout, you're the scout, you're the one that's going to notice these changes perhaps before she does either because, I spoke to so many women for this book and some of them said, I was just in denial or I didn't know or I thought it wouldn't happen to me yet.

Dr Louise Newson: [01:05:40] Yeah.

Joe Warner: [01:05:40] There can be tonnes of different reasons.

Dr Louise Newson: [01:05:41] But it comes on also quite gradually, it varies. Some people, it comes on like a tonne of bricks or like, you know, people tell me they fall off a cliff. Other times it's gradual, but even last week, there was an article in the paper saying that mental health is a crisis for middle-aged women, suicide rates are high, I don't know if you read it, and then it said, because they've got a stiff upper lip and they're bringing up children and they've got elderly parents and they're the sandwich generation. If they talk about it, then it would be better. Nothing about hormones. And I'm just thinking that's not helpful actually for women at all, because then they're less likely to talk about it because it shows their vulnerability.

Joe Warner: [01:06:17] It puts the blame back on the woman for not being able to juggle all these things. I see this all the time and again, lots of my conversations were around, there's a chapter in the book, how to deal with the doctor. Not necessarily what the man should say or take over an appointment, but how you can prepare your partner for an appointment. We've got a little fun game called brush off bingo. If you hear your doctor say, your GP say any of these things, might be time for a second opinion because...

Dr Louise Newson: [01:06:43] That's really interesting.

Joe Warner: [01:06:46] So many women report the same thing.

Dr Louise Newson: [01:06:46] Did you hear that a lot?

Joe Warner: [01:06:48] Yeah, exactly. Antidepressants was the first solution. Hormones weren't even mentioned. You're just a bit tired. You're juggling too much. Have you tried drinking less coffee, drinking less wine? These are all the things we've put in the book.

Dr Louise Newson: [01:07:03] Don't you think that's crazy, it's 2026. We had a patient recently whose doctor said to them, perhaps you should pray more and eat more fruit.

Joe Warner: [01:07:11] I mean, it's so, I'm not often speechless, but I was so many times in the course of researching this book, because firstly I think I was shocked and then I was angry. And then it's almost just like this simmering rage and it's not happening to me. So I'm so far removed from it. So I can only imagine what it feels like if you're...

Dr Louise Newson: [01:07:28] That's why I get angry every single day, you can see how cross I am.

Joe Warner: [01:07:32] Absolutely, and ompletely justifiably so, because women are suffering often in silence. And I think to come back to what you were saying, one of the reasons I wanted to write this book is somebody said to me, there's a silent army of support here. And there's husbands and there's colleagues and there's men here that can step up and help. And, I think it's really important as well, and we address this in the book, not to see it's her problem or it's your fault. This is a hormonal, biological issue.

Dr Louise Newson: [01:08:01] Absolutely. I think that's crucially important and many years ago, I did some work for West Midlands Fire Brigade. And this was about 10, nine, 10 years ago, so no-one was really talking about menopause then. And, I was really just talking to them about what it is, what it means. And I remember speaking to people in the occupational health, and they were saying a lot of men in their 40s, early 50s were having a lot time off work with sickness. And when they unpicked it, and really spoke to these men, they were really struggling at home. And that was affecting them work as well. So then talking to them about hormones, what it means, the effects, they're like, oh my goodness, so it's not my fault then. That's why she's gone off me, that's what she won't hold my hand, that's how we can't have sex. That's why she's miserable, that's why she's put on weight, I thought it was something I was doing. And so suddenly it not to be a blame thing. But the problem is, and it's still a problem that infuriates me every day is that it's seen as a natural transition process without any treatment or if the treatment is given, it's like you say normally antidepressants. Whereas it's a hormonal problem with health risks, with symptoms that should be addressed with hormones. And if it was addressed a lot quicker, then people wouldn't be suffering.

Joe Warner: [01:09:18] Absolutely and yeah, speaking to, to countless couples who are at various stages of the perimenopausal journey, some at the beginning and terrified and some whose relationship had broken down. And that's so, so common. There's quite a lot going on in middle life, in midlife for men and women that is similar in terms of, you know, young kids, elderly parents, work stress, and obviously a lot of women are working now, which might not have been the case a generation ago. And I don't want anyone to think that I'm equating what men go through in mid-life as women. I'm absolutely not. Men do suffer some changes in midlife with testosterone going down. It's not the same. I want to make that crystal clear.

Dr Louise Newson: [01:09:53] No, but I think it is important to acknowledge, you know, I'm very interested in the role of hormones in men and women. And you know 30% of men will have low testosterone. A lot of mental health is related to low testosterone, I've mentioned that my husband uses testosterone. If you both got hormonal problems, then it's really difficult actually. And I think people still think it's quite like a bit of a failure thing having hormones.

Joe Warner: [01:10:18] There's ego tied up with it, especially with men, it's your job is to be able to perform on demand and that's what you do.

Dr Louise Newson: [01:10:23] Yeah, but even for women, I think because it's so difficult to get from the doctors, 25 years ago, it used to be a sort of more of an opt-out treatment. You would automatically have it really. And we know that HRT prescribing was more than double of what it is now. Whereas now it's almost like you've got to plead for it. You've got to really beg. And I've been trying for the last six weeks to get my HRT from my NHS GP and I can't get it at the minute and you know, whereas if I was on an antidepressant, I don't know, I've not been on an anti-depressant. If I was, I'm sure they'd give it to me very quickly. And that doesn't seem right.

Joe Warner: [01:11:02] No, it's that complete mismatch between what could really make a tangible difference relatively quickly.

Dr Louise Newson: [01:11:08] Yeah, absolutely.

Joe Warner: [01:11:09] Versus going on a lifetime potentially of antidepressants that aren't going to address the hormonal issue. When, when men speak to me about this and they're often confused and they are hurt and sometimes they're angry as well. What I found massively useful is trying to make the case that perimenopause might be happening to your partner, but you're going through changes. And the sooner you can realise that you're on a team here and it's not a case of trying to fix each other or, you know, because so many men will default to that fix. Right, we need, there's a problem, you're a problem. It's a, problem. How do we fix it? And you can't fix perimenopause.

Dr Louise Newson: [01:11:45] Yeah.

Joe Warner: [01:11:46] And then sometimes men will try and fix it and get rebuffed, you know, because it's the wrong time, it's, the wrong approach it's the wrong language. And then they'll put their head in the sand.

Dr Louise Newson: [01:11:55] Yeah.

Joe Warner: [01:11:55] And that's where you see couples at this sort of crossroads of...

Dr Louise Newson: [01:11:59] Yeah.

Joe Warner: [01:11:59] Can we communicate again and address this as a team and get back on the same wavelength. Because I think that's what the hormone disruption does. You're both kind of wanting the same thing, but you can't quite connect to each other.

Dr Louise Newson: [01:12:09] I think it's really hard because, I mean, from personal experience, but also experience of seeing thousands of women, you feel very vulnerable, really vulnerable, very exposed and your brain doesn't work properly. Like it really could be quite difficult to understand even short sentences of two syllables or whatever. So, but I think also for a lot of men, obviously it's a generalisation, but it's very black and white. It's a hormonal problem, have some hormones and fix it, which is true. But for women who've been told all these things about hormones, their mum didn't maybe have them, or maybe it's a failure, or my doctor's saying they're too dangerous, and then they catastrophise, and then they overthink, and the man's just like, well, let me help you a bit more. But it's how do you approach that person without falling out with them? How do you not become the person that's sort of ganging up against them, really? But I do think partners have a really important role to be an advocate for that person. And the knowledge bank for that person, because even just Googling or reading a book or listening to a podcast can be very hard when you've got hormonal changes to you know, absorb all that knowledge and make sense of it and there's so much, even on my social media, I'm just popping up on adverts and supplements and you don't know who to believe. You don't who to trust. So having that information as a partner, ideally before you need it. Then you can calmly say, look, I just think, I know you so well. I think some of your symptoms could be related to your hormones.

Joe Warner: [01:13:41] I think that was the starting point for, not even writing the book, but the pitch for trying to get a book deal off the ground was, I don't believe most men are silent because of a lack of empathy. I just don't believe, if you marry someone, you're with someone, you love them and you care them and want them to thrive. So if it's not a lack of empathy. What is it? And It's a lack of knowledge, it's a lack of language, and it's a lack of confidence. If you don't have the knowledge or the language to express that knowledge or the confidence to say in the first place, it is easy to put your head in the sand. And I think partners can play, I mean, an absolutely fundamental role because as you say, if you're, if you're not able to think clearly, you know, you don't feel like yourself, you feel like a stranger, you can't make rational decisions, you can't take on board the information, you can't assess what the GP is telling you are your viable options. And this is where someone, not to take over, but to accompany, to make notes, to read resources, to start distilling all of that information into some options, some plans and we really stress in the book, like we're not saying this is the right way to approach it. What we're doing is giving you, hopefully, an amazing array of options and you can pick and choose what works for you and your partner in your life, because we're all at different stages.

Dr Louise Newson: [01:14:58] We're all so different and our relationships are very different and what we want out of our relationships are very different as well. The book is not judgmental, which is really important, but it's also really heavily referenced. I must congratulate you with how heavily referenced it is, because that does make a difference.

Joe Warner: [01:15:17] I think it's really important. I was conscious at the start of this of why is a man writing about the menopause? Because you've got to be aware of these things and everyone, largely most people have been incredibly supportive of that. But I think to back it up, you have to earn that. And I think doing the research and it was fascinating for me discovering so much. Like I said, I was a health and fitness journalist for 20 years, I still am, but dealing with it was very simple and then you factor in in hormones and you, I mean I just wouldn't wish it on your worst enemy. Some of the symptoms, I know everyone gets different symptoms, but it's, it was absolutely horrific. And I think the more, the more research I read, the more it helped me form some sort of action plan for the book of what would be most useful for men. And it's not taking it personally. It's not trying to fix it. You know, quite often it's listening. You just need to listen. And there's a big section on just how to actively listen because it's where so many couples can fall apart. It's just that breakdown in communication. It's very hard to get back. You think you've been with somebody 15, 20 years, you're always going to be able to talk, but it starts as a crack and turns into a chasm sometimes.

Dr Louise Newson: [01:16:22] And it's really important and even thinking back to the bedroom scene, so many women I speak to are not having any intimacy with their partner and they're not having sex. And a lot of doctors even find it very uncomfortable talking about sex and clearly I don't. Because, I've lost count, the number of women who say to me, I can't believe you're asking me about this, this is really nice to have this conversation. I didn't know so many other women felt the same as me and you know, a lot of people say it's not that I don't love him, I just don't have any feelings, like I'm numb from the waist downwards, you know, George Clooney could walk in the room and I still wouldn't want to have sex. It's just, and they're really sad about it, but they almost feel that it's, it's something that they should not talk about. Somehow men can talk about sex a lot, they can't really talk about lack of sex to their friends, but women, if they want sex, it's almost a dirty thing and it's hung over from the Victorian times, I'm sure. But actually, why can't women be allowed to have sex and a good orgasm and everything else. But who do they talk to? And that's really, and then the men often, this is a generalisation again, if they can't have a good sexual relationship with their partner, then they feel it's their fault.

Joe Warner: [01:17:43] That's exactly what I was just about to say. It's very difficult, I think. Again, we're always talking generalisations here where we're talking about men and women, but I think this is where a lot of men feel like it is their fault. She's not attracted to me, why doesn't she want to hold hands? You can't remember the last time any sort of intimate act happened. I think it's probably just human nature. I think both men and women will feel rejected. There's a lot of shame. I think men are probably great talking about sex when they're getting a lot it.

Dr Louise Newson: [01:18:13] Well, that's right, but they don't go down to the pub and say you know what, lads, I haven't had sex for two years. Like, how are you going to bring that up?

Joe Warner: [01:18:19] It's really, really difficult. And I think we do cover sex and intimacy in the books. It's obviously such an important part of a relationship and middle age and, you know, the belief in the sex expert I've got, sex gets better if you're communicating. But it's about that again, that mismatch. I think for some men, you know, it literally a gust of wind and they can be in the mood. Whereas the expert I spoke to in the book was, you know, women, some women want that sizzle even, you know, they might obviously before HRT, nothing at all. But even then, once they are beginning to get back on track.

Dr Louise Newson: [01:18:49] It's so important. If you've not had a sexual relationship for a couple of years, sometimes it's a lot longer. I've got a couple who hadn't had sex for 15 years and she had recurrent urinary tract infections, interstitial cystitis. Every time she had sex before she had urinary tract infections. Then she had awful vaginal dryness, soreness, irritation, joint pain, you know, the works. And it took about probably two years to get the right balance of hormones for her. And then it took about another three or four years for them to have a sexual relationship, but it was a very gradual thing. They just learned to know each other again and then explore each other's bodies in a, just a nice tactile sort of teenager type way without the pressure of sex and, you know, he always used to come, or he still does to the consultation. So we could talk quite openly about different ways of just reconnecting actually, and they found it very lovely to have somebody independent, non-judgmental, who could just talk about things. And now they are so gloriously happy together. But it's been a combination of the hormones, their relationship, relearning and the trust and everything together.

Joe Warner: [01:20:03] Patience, I think that's where so many men kind of either get defensive or put the barriers up is there's a problem and they don't like it, so why can't we fix it quickly, but you know, especially with intimacy and sex, it's going to take a long time. The longer it's been, the longer it is going to take and it's that fixation and it doesn't have to be penetrative sex. There's other ways that you can connect, which we cover. But I think relationships generally, it is one of the most common things the men I spoke to were frustrated about. You don't have to fix it, it's not your fault. You can then start listening without judgement, without solutions, and sometimes you won't need to say anything, but it just shows your partner that she's being heard and that there is someone there. Because I think sometimes you have to re-establish that you're in it together, because if there's been some miscommunication or some problems, you can kind of, you know, a busy household, you're ships passing in the night, all you talk about is logistics of who's picking up when and who needs to go to which lesson.

Dr Louise Newson: [01:20:58] Yeah.

Joe Warner: [01:20:58] You've got to dedicate some time for yourself. And I think that's where talking, even if it's just on a car drive where you're side by side or a walk once a week, going out and getting lunch. Anything like that that you can put in the diary that you prioritise. It's just so important in making you realise that you are there for one another and you want to make each other happier and healthier.

Dr Louise Newson: [01:21:17] Yeah. It's really important, but I do also feel really sad. You know, you were saying about being angry and I do spend a lot of my time angry, but also feel sad because I feel the medical establishment is really failing women. Even when we think about libido and sex and the role of testosterone in women, hardly any women are prescribed testosterone. And we know that it can improve sexual desire. It can improve sexual experiences, it can improve libido, orgasm and so forth. Yet women have to really often plead for it. I don't know what your experience was in the book when you talked to women about testosterone?

Joe Warner: [01:21:56] We didn't cover a huge amount. We do talk about testosterone in there, but obviously when we talk about HRT, we talk mainly about estrogen. But it's interesting because on the way here on the tube, I couldn't help but notice all the testosterone testing for men, on Bank station is just covered in them and I think it was very difficult for men to admit they might need testosterone. I think that's going now. My general vibe is that a lot of men are talking about TRT. You're obviously seeing a lot of guys in their 40s and 50s in pretty good shape. So that has suddenly become acceptable for lack of a better phrase. But yes, with women, it's obviously a completely different story and it's almost like that is such an important conversation, but where do you focus the battle because it's HRT as a whole concept for GPs and giving it to women is still so far from normal. How are we still at this stage where it's so long since the studies have debunked?

Dr Louise Newson: [01:22:55] Yeah.

Joe Warner: [01:22:57] But I'm interested in your thoughts on where that comes from. Is it so ingrained in society, in the medical profession, that it's going to take another 20 years before we finally see...

Dr Louise Newson: [01:23:09] Well it's interesting. I think what is changing is women are understanding it more than often the healthcare professionals. And yeah, there's studies even in the 1940s showing that women's wellbeing, their mental health improve on testosterone. One of the big things that I think needs to be unlearned really, I suppose, is about what testosterone is. Because a lot of doctors and healthcare professionals think testosterone is the same as the testosterone that people inject with and abuse in various gyms or whatever, the anabolic steroids that are synthetic testosterones. So they're not the same chemical structure testosterone. There's hundreds of them available in the market, wherever, and they are not the same when they do have risks. Like the synthetic estrogens, the synthetic progestogens, they're completely different chemicals. So a lot of doctors who don't prescribe are worried that they're putting their patients at risk. I would never prescribe a synthetic testosterone. I prescribe the body identical gel or the cream. It's the same structure, you're replacing like for like. And I think until people understand that, it's really basic, really basic. It's like saying to you, you need more protein. Do you wanna have chicken, as in roast chicken, or you're gonna have chicken flavoured crisps? Which one's got protein? Won't take you long. Your five-year-old will be able to say probably the chicken, roast chicken. And that's the same with the testosterone. So I think we have to really just debunk all the myths and say, also, all we're doing is restoring testosterone to a physiological response. And some women might need slightly less or some women may be slightly low. We hardly ever see side effects with testosterone. I've taken testosterone myself for 10 years and I would not be married probably, I wouldn't be able to look after my children and I wouldn't be working without testosterone. You know, Mo Khera, a professor, has been on my podcast a couple of times and he clearly says, and I agree with him that testosterone is the most important hormone marker of health. So we know it reduces instances of type 2 diabetes, cardiovascular disease, dementia. So denying women a biologically active hormone in my mind is scandalous actually, and it's got to change. Like so many generations of doctors, but I think it's got to come from the women and the men, you know, understanding it really.

Joe Warner: [01:25:35] I don't think we can, again, generalising, we can't rely on the medical profession to lead that charge. And I think what I was very keen to get across in the book is how the male partner can support during interactions with doctors by these are the questions to be asked and going into your appointment with a checklist or even some bullet point questions. What do you want out of this? What are my options? Because I think if you go and say, I don't know what's going on...

Dr Louise Newson: [01:26:00] You're wasting your 10 minutes.

Joe Warner: [01:26:03] You're wasting your 10 minutes. You're probably going to get, sympathies with GPs, they've got an awful lot of people to see and limited time and resource. And that's why I think being proactive can be so helpful. Asking about treatment, what about testosterone? And you might not get it on the first go, you're not going to get it on the first go, but you've started that conversation and it shows that you're informed and then you can go away and do your own research. But I think it is very much a case of, you know, at some point the buck has to stop with us, we have to do it ourselves because we can't rely on anyone to safeguard us or corral us into the right treatment approach.

Dr Louise Newson: [01:26:35] Yeah.

Joe Warner: [01:26:35] You've got to do the research and I say to any bloke I speak to about the book, you know, you can't, you can't fix anyone, but you can educate yourself. This is where it has to start.

Dr Louise Newson: [01:26:47] Absolutely, I mean a lot of my work is educating people so they make choices that are right for them and you know taking hormones is a choice, exercising is a choice but we've got to understand the reasons that we're doing it and then we make the choice based on education. So this book is wonderful, I'm going to end by asking you three reasons why people should buy and read the book.

Joe Warner: [01:27:09] It's interesting because my answers for women are going to be different for men, right.

Dr Louise Newson: [01:27:12] Why don't you do two each then. I'll let you do that. Two for women and two for men.

Joe Warner: [01:27:16] I think the first thing, the book is written for men. It's a man's guide to the menopause, but I really do believe that women would benefit from reading it because you just mentioned the lifestyle. We go into a lot around lifting weights, eating more protein, sleep and stress. We also talk about HRT options as well. So I've written it in a way that hopefully makes it helpful for both men and women. So, I think, the first thing would be if you're a woman listening to this, get your partner to listen to this podcast, I think is the most important thing because I've had a lot of feedback from menopause advocates who say they do seminars, but men just don't come, they don't come if a woman's presenting it. And I think hopefully a bloke talking about it might make it a little bit more accessible. We've also got a free download that women, I'd love you to download that and pass it onto your partner or get them to do it. It's one chapter from the book that's all about men and midlife. And I that's going to help set the scene. And for men, obviously listen to this and download the free chapter, because it's a really good starting point. Learning how to listen is the most important thing and not jumping into fix-it mode but listening, finding out what's going on, realising that you've got far more in common than you probably think. And the final thing for men, I mean I can't just say buy the book obviously can I even though that's what I want to say. I think just be patient, I think, small gestures count much more than big gestures, being present, being steady, being calm, Being a rock for your partner while they go through this. You're probably dealing with your own midlife stuff as well, but it's realising you're in a team and if you can be steady, that's going to give someone else something they can anchor onto. My advice to any man listening to this, if it feels tough right now, there is a way through. You can do it, but it all starts with a little bit of education and a whole lot of love and you will get there.

Dr Louise Newson: [01:29:02] Yeah, thank you. Thank you so much for coming. It's been great and well done again.

Joe Warner: [01:29:06] Thank you.

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