Dr Louise Newson: [01:00:00] Today's podcast is about research, research into hormones that has been woefully neglected for far too long. So I have Aini, who's one of our very small but very wonderful research team, talking about the research we're doing, the research we're planning, the research we've published, and how exciting it is because it really is changing the future health of women. So enjoy this, listen, learn and share. So Aini, this is really exciting that you're here in the podcast because you work remotely. So we don't actually get much time together. So you are one of our key research team. We've, it's a very lean team, very small team, but you know, small is beautiful. And it's phenomenal because you've worked with us for how many years now? [01:00:46][46.0]

Aini Kamal: [01:00:47] Four. [01:00:47][0.0]

Dr Louise Newson: [01:00:47] Feels longer actually in a good way. [01:00:49][1.7]

Aini Kamal: [01:00:48] In a good way. [01:00:49][0.4]

Aini Kamal: [01:00:49] Because we've done so much. [01:00:50][0.9]

Aini Kamal: [01:00:50] We have. Before I started here, we did quite a bit, yes. [01:00:53][2.7]

Dr Louise Newson: [01:00:53] Yes, because you started, you were working with Dan Reisel, who's an amazing gynaecologist that we know, who has done research with us too, and he's a neuroscientist. And what's your background? Just go through your background before we talk about what we've done together. [01:01:07][14.4]

Aini Kamal: [01:01:07] So my undergrad was in neuroscience and I kind of did that degree because my mum was actually diagnosed with schizophrenia when I was about 15, 16 and that, as you can imagine turned our life upside down. But she got better, thank God. And yeah, I think that kind of made me question a few things, especially in our culture, there's a huge stigma attached to mental health disorders, anything, yes, physical health as well. So I did my degree and I enjoyed it. It was very researchy, very into the methodologies and whatnot and then when I graduated, I was about to do a master's in clinical neuroscience because I'm somebody and I think you've realised this when I do work, I love for it to have an impact or an outcome or make a difference. [01:01:56][48.7]

Dr Louise Newson: [01:01:56] Yes. [01:01:56][0.0]

Aini Kamal: [01:01:56] So I wanted to take what I learned in my neuroscience degree and apply it with patients and everything. There was something in me that kind of said, you know, you don't have to jump into it, take a year out, see if there's anything else out there. So I took a gap year and in that gap year, I was essentially exposed to how underfunded, under-researched women's health in general is. And I was saying to you before I went to an all girls school for five years, didn't hear the word menopause, endometriosis, back then it was PCOS, all these terms. I think the only thing we knew was breast cancer because it's the most common cancer in women. And cervical cancer purely because of the HPV vaccination that we're given. [01:02:35][38.9]

Dr Louise Newson: [01:02:35] You learned about about cancer, but not about hormones and menopause? [01:02:37][2.5]

Aini Kamal: [01:02:39] No, no, nothing. And then thinking back as well, GCSE and A-level, you would learn the definition of a hormone, but you'd never actually learn anything more. So that inspired me to do a master's in women's health. And I really enjoyed that master's. It taught me so much from how social science works to the legalities and ethics side of things. And then I knew for my dissertation I wanted to do something that wouldn't just sit in my bookshelf, it would actually do something. And that's when, Dan, he had a project which was to develop a digital decision aid for menopause care. And I was like, yes, that's down my street. That's, you know, digital health within women's health, that's great. And we, he's actually a neuroscientist by background as well. So that was quite cool to be able to connect on that level as well, and he's now training to be a gynaecologist, I believe. So to have somebody who's got a background in neuroscience, but also women's health at that time, anyway, it wasn't common to see. [01:03:37][57.7]

Dr Louise Newson: [01:03:37] And it still isn't really is it? [01:03:38][0.9]

Aini Kamal: [01:03:39] It still isn't no. I did that dissertation and as part of developing it, we also needed a clinical steering group, which was where you and a few other clinicians joined us. So having your feedback, having your expertise, your real world experience really transformed the project for us. And then the cherry on top was that we were able to actually evaluate it. So we sent it to over 250 doctors, nurses, pharmacists, and they all came back saying, this was really great, you really break down how HRT works, the benefits and you kind of, we used infographics to illustrate how it would help women and yes, we got a lot of good positive feedback from it. [01:04:19][40.5]

Dr Louise Newson: [01:04:20] You got a really good mark as well, didn't you? [01:04:22][2.5]

Aini Kamal: [01:04:22] I got 92% and I was also awarded by the university, which I love to, it makes me proud. [01:04:28][6.0]

Dr Louise Newson: [01:04:30] Yes, well you should be because there's a lot of work. And I remember when Dan first contacted me to show me and I then had to tell him the difference between bioidentical hormone treatments and synthetic. And initially he didn't really want to listen and he won't mind me saying because it's true. And then what was good about Dan is that you can agree to disagree and then you move on, but then you go back. And what I did with Dan is sent him more papers, sent him more evidence. And then he was like, why didn't I know this before? And what's been really great actually with time, and we all have, we've learned so much more that then when it makes sense as well, it just blows your mind literally. And so we've all been on a journey together really. But what's really been interesting is I'm really interested in neuroscience. I'm very interested in neuroanatomy, neurophysiology, neuropharmacology. And then when I realised a few years ago that hormones get made in the brain. I'm not even remotely, well I am vaguely interested in the ovaries, but the brain is the most amazing organ. I mean it's an incredible organ and when you understand that every single cell in the brain is responding to our hormones, it's incredible but I presume you weren't taught that when you did your neuroscience degree? [01:05:48][78.9]

Aini Kamal: [01:05:49] No, and actually in preparation for this podcast, I asked four of my friends from neuroscience. I got in touch with them and asked, hey, just by any chance, if you remember, did we ever have a lecture on hormones during our degree? And they all said, no, we may have touched upon it, but that was about it. And I remember I had one lecture because I chose a depression anxiety-based module and we were just talking about oxytocin in the brain, but that was it. [01:06:14][24.8]

Dr Louise Newson: [01:06:15] Isn't it incredible? [01:06:15][0.5]

Aini Kamal: [01:06:16] We talked about adrenaline, noradrenaline, but estrogen, testosterone, none of that has was really ever relayed to us. [01:06:21][5.8]

Dr Louise Newson: [01:06:22] And it's interesting because when I started to read, I've got quite an inquisitive mind. So once I started to understand about that hormones were produced in the brain and that every cell responds, I went back to really read some very basic texts. But a lot of the papers were written in the 1980s and 90s. So it's not like a new thing. But I think sometimes everything and research is like that, too, it's very siloed, isn't it? And then if you don't put your research into clinical context, it's just about getting your publication. [01:06:50][28.2]

Aini Kamal: [01:06:50] Yes, and it gets forgotten about, it goes to the last in the pile. [01:06:53][2.2]

Dr Louise Newson: [01:06:54] Yes and I realised that years ago when I did my pathology degree, I was looking at type four collagen. So a type of collagen in the skin of people with systemic sclerosis, which is quite an unusual condition, mainly affects women. And I was very excited when I got a result with, I was doing in situ hybridisation and I wrote up the paper and it got accepted. And I thought, wow, I've got my first publication, peer review journal. But then just before I finished my degree, I thought, do you know what, I've never seen a patient with systemic sclerosis. So I thought oh, I better go, because I was still a medical student, so I hadn't had much exposure to patients. So I went to a clinic in Salford in Manchester, and I sat in the clinic, and they get very tightening of the skin. And so that a lot of, often chilblains, sometimes they lose the ends of their fingers, but they can't open their hands very easily, and also around their mouth, couldn't open their mouth. So I was sitting in the clinic, and these disease were very extreme cases, so not everyone with systemic sclerosis is like this, but they couldn't pick up a fork and they couldn't feed themselves. So I'm thinking, almost guilty, thinking, I'm really excited that I've got a paper about type four collagen and systemic sclerosis in the skin and these people can't even function. Like how is my research really going help them in their lifetime? It won't. So then I thought, gosh, if ever I do research, in the future, I've got to make it translational. I've got to make it help. Because in academia, often you get judged by how many publications you have. And in university, that's where people go up the ladder, isn't it, with their publications. And it's still a game. People make money from the publications, there's quite a lot of bias in what's published. The more you see it, it's not as transparent and without conflict as you might expect. So then I thought, well, I only want to do research that's going make a difference, but I'm not an academic researcher. But it's really important when we have got so many patients and we're seeing these patterns happen that we're thinking, well we want to share it with other people, don't we? We want to tell other people. But there's also quite a lot of antagonism in our work and some people don't like the fact that we have a private clinic and they think that it's all placebo and that we're just using this to try and advertise our clinic. And that makes it really difficult when we're doing the research in the right way, doesn't it? [01:09:23][149.3]

Aini Kamal: [01:09:24] Exactly, I know. And I think that's where collaborators outside the clinic becomes really useful. So we've been working with amazing people, Professor Kulkarni from Australia. She's a psychiatrist by background. Obviously, Dr Mo Khera and his team in America, up and down the UK as well. We work with so many people and it's not just our data. We're seeing it across. [01:09:46][22.4]

Dr Louise Newson: [01:09:48] Yes, absolutely. And I think that's been, it has been really great because, because we're a small team, we don't receive any funding from pharmacutical companies or anyone else. And sometimes in the clinic, we've had really difficult times where we haven't, you know, we haven't had much profit, especially after the Panorama programme, things were really tight, we had to lay off lots of doctors. And the management people often would say to me, well, what about your research team? They're not making money for you, Louise. Why don't you... And I was like, no. It's so important to change the future for women. We're very privileged that we've got all this data, but actually we don't want to keep it to ourselves. And also for our own clinical experience and governance, we need to show that what we're doing is right. I need to be able to be reassured as a doctor that I'm getting good outcomes and I'm being safe. So a lot of our research, if you like, we don't even always publish because we're looking internally. And then it's also really useful for others to analyse and look at our data in an anonymous way, because then no-one's saying, oh, well, that's Aini did that data analysis, and she works in the clinic. Actually, it's Mo Khera's team, and they know nothing about what we do, and so then that makes it really powerful, doesn't it? [01:11:05][77.0]

Aini Kamal: [01:11:05] Exactly, exactly. And we do it, obviously, in a safe way. [01:11:07][2.4]

Dr Louise Newson: [01:11:08] Absolutely. But also, everyone's got different skills, and that's what's really useful as well, isn't it? So just to learn from other people how they work, how they present, how they write up papers. Because actually writing up a paper, an academic paper, it's not a quick process, is it? [01:11:24][16.2]

Aini Kamal: [01:11:25] No, it's hard. It's hard, but you're right, actually, working with different people, different experiences and skill sets. And even, I mean, both Professor Kulkarni and Dr mo, they both see patients, but we don't. And you see patients and other clinicians see patients that we work with and having that conversation with you to see that side of it and bring the data to life. [01:11:46][21.4]

Dr Louise Newson: [01:11:47] It's amazing, isn't it? So you've been presenting actually. I've, when was the first time you presented, it was when we were in Lisbon, wasn't it? [01:11:55][7.6]

Aini Kamal: [01:11:55] In 2022, yes. [01:11:56][0.9]

Dr Louise Newson: [01:11:57] So you came with us to a conference. It was the European Menopause Conference and we had quite a lot of abstracts and data that we were presenting and I asked you to present and I remember you being a bit nervous, but it was fantastic. And you've also presented at the Royal College of GPs with Dan, you presented your data as well, didn't you? And everyone's always really interested. And then last year and this year, you presented at our Newson Education Conference, our in-house, Newson Clinic conference. And what's been amazing is when you're presenting the work that we've done, you could almost hear a pin drop. Everyone is so, so interested, but also so relieved that this is happening because no-one else is doing it really. [01:12:42][45.3]

Aini Kamal: [01:12:43] Yes, I love it. Towards the end of each conference, we have a flood of clinicians saying absolutely love it, but we have an idea for this project and that project and this project. So having them involved and giving us ideas and just, it just gives us, as a little team, the motivation to keep going. [01:12:58][14.9]

Dr Louise Newson: [01:12:59] And it's really important, but it also gives our clinicians motivation to record things properly in the notes. Because for those of you listening who don't know, when we record things in the notes, obviously we do it because we're clinicians, but we have lots of tick boxes. So it makes it easier. But also a while ago, we made it so that people couldn't save their consultations unless they had ticked a box is about side effects for testosterone. Because sometimes in a flow of a consultation, you might forget to ask something or you might not ask the same question as another clinician. So we've made lots of sort of templates really, haven't we, with the help of the research team. So for example, we're writing up our data of thousands of people who have been on testosterone and I have to, because I can't save otherwise, it's quite frustrating to say, have they had voice changes? Have they had hair growth? Have they had any of these side effects? So then when you get that data. You can anonymise it very easily because we don't need to go into the clinical letters. We don't have to go in to the nitty gritty. It's just that top bit. But it also, you know, that there's not any sort of bias with recall or there's, you know some clinicians will do better note keeping than others. Everyone does the same. So, but it's been great because when the doctors say, oh, why do we have to tick this box? And I'm saying because of the research and then they see the research has been published. Then they're like, wow, this is so good. And that's really great, isn't it? [01:14:26][87.4]

Aini Kamal: [01:14:27] It is, it is. [01:14:27][0.3]

Dr Louise Newson: [01:14:28] Because a lot of research teams, I think, often work in isolation, don't they? And you're just data machines or you're just writing up papers or doing the analysis. And it's been great having Olivia Hendriks coming over who was the PhD that we co-funded with Liverpool John Moores University. So she started off doing her project, didn't she? [01:14:50][21.9]

Aini Kamal: [01:14:50] Yeah, yeah. [01:14:50][0.4]

Dr Louise Newson: [01:14:50] With us and now she's working. And I think for her to come from a university background where she hasn't had all that clinical exposure to come and see that the research is, well her research is because it's about suicide, is literally saving lives as well. And then it was out on ITV. [01:15:07][17.2]

Aini Kamal: [01:15:08] I know. [01:15:08][0.2]

Dr Louise Newson: [01:15:09] It's phenomenal isn't it? [01:15:10][1.1]

Aini Kamal: [01:15:10] It's so phenomenal because I remember when I first met her and it was an idea that was being proposed. And then I was obviously helping her with the method side of it, getting the data and everything and to now see her being able to publish paper after paper after paper. And to, I mean, I think the other day, the prime minister, Andy Burnham, even acknowledged it. [01:15:31][20.5]

Dr Louise Newson: [01:15:32] Which is phenomenal, isn't it because basically this is one of many papers that she's published, but it was showing that there's a 92% reduction in suicidal thoughts when women are on all three hormones. And one in six of our patients have suicidal thoughts when they come. And we know that the suicide rate has increased in women in their late 40s. And so she did a lot of work looking at barriers to people getting help, barriers to receiving hormone treatments. She did a lot of research talking to patients as well, didn't she? But this paper that we had published in the British Journal of Psychiatry was really important. And when the journalist started to talk about it, and then it went into the media and then Andy Burnham talking about we need to do more education. And it's been really good for external people to look at our published research. I mean, it's incredible, isn't it really? [01:16:27][54.9]

Aini Kamal: [01:16:27] Yeah, yeah. [01:16:27][0.0]

Dr Louise Newson: [01:16:30] I hope you're enjoying today's episode. If you'd like to hear more conversations like this, then please follow us or subscribe to the podcast on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, YouTube, or wherever you listen. By subscribing, you'll be the first to hear new episodes each week featuring expert guests, the latest research and evidence-based discussions about hormones and the health of women. Thank you for listening and being part of this really important community. [01:16:58][28.3]

Dr Louise Newson: [01:17:01] But I think things are changing in academia because, you know, when I had my first paper published in 1992, a long time ago, it was all about the impact factor of the journal, which journal, you, know, was it good enough, whatever. Whereas now, even when we have abstracts, which are, you now, shorter, they can be oral presentations or it might be a poster at a conference. We've had dozens of those. Actually, the impact factor of that to others is huge because if you get it on through social media, get it picked up in the media. Like some of our small data sets. It really makes a difference... [01:17:35][34.0]

Aini Kamal: [01:17:35] So true, I didn't think of it like that. That's so true and not just social media, it's outside social media as well. When you start talking about bringing it up in person with people, you know, there was a study that found XYZ, that itself sparks the conversation. [01:17:48][13.0]

Dr Louise Newson: [01:17:49] Absolutely, because I was presenting at ISSWSH, which is a sexual health conference earlier this year, and I think we had eight abstracts, it was a lot, and they kept saying, Louise, it's your turn to go up and you only have like five minutes or so, it is very, very short to present, and one of them was looking at FSH levels, and we see clinically they're not helpful. But the guidelines say that women under the age of 40, you should have your FSH level measured before you can diagnose. And I see a lot of women who have low FSH levels or it's normal, but they definitely have hormonal symptoms. And one of the reasons I wanted to do it was many years ago, one of first ladies I diagnosed with POI, I saw her and she had two years of results. And at the beginning, two years before her FSH was high, the GP didn't know what to do about it so said come back and have your blood tested in three months' time. And then it was normal. And then she had another normal one and another normal one. And then she had a high one. And then the GP said, no, I think you've had other normal ones. You definitely aren't menopausal. So she came to see me in the clinic. She'd given up her job as a psychotherapist. She'd stopped walking her dog because she was walking with a stick. She had such bad muscle and joint pain. She was having four showers every morning because she getting a lot of hot sweats. She couldn't remember anything. She had very low mood. She was very dark. She had a lot urinary tract symptoms. And I looked at her results, but then I looked her, I said, and her periods have become very scanty. And I said, well, I'm going to try you on hormone treatments. You've been on painkillers, you've been on antidepressants, you been on all these other drugs. So I'm going to give them to you. And this was ten years ago and I, then she came back to the clinic after three months and we do the symptom questionnaire, don't we? And so you could see all the ticks had moved. She was so much better. She had literally nothing in the column whereas before it was all very severe. So I thought, this is brilliant. And when she came down and sat in the chair and then burst into tears. And I was like, oh no, what have I done? Gave her tissues and she said, I just want to thank you. She said, but I'm grieving for the time that I could have had over those two years. And I thought, gosh, this is really impactful work actually. She said because, you know, I've now walked out my walking boots because I walk with my dog. I'm getting a different job. I've now got a partner. I never thought I'd have a partner ever again. And it just made me think like how bad guidelines can be if they're not based on really solid evidence, how any real-life data is speaking more volumes than anything else. And that's why even this small abstract we did, I just think, well, if it helps just one other person have a better quality of life earlier. And then we did mention, because then you came to Valencia, didn't you, in Spain, and we were just there for a day presenting some data. And I asked, didn't I, one of the, there's one of the panel who write the guidelines and I asked them why they have FSH levels. Do you remember? [01:20:45][176.0]

Aini Kamal: [01:20:46] I remember. [01:20:46][0.0]

Dr Louise Newson: [01:20:47] And they said, ah, it was so frustrating. They said, but how else do we diagnose, Louise? And I said, well, firstly, you don't always need a blood test. Not everything in medicine you need a blood test. But then secondly, I did say that people who were on drugs such as quetiapine, which is an anti-psychotic, they can increase prolactin levels and then reduce FSH levels. So you see people with low FSH levels who have early menopause. And one of the panel then came up to me afterwards and said, what was that drug you said? What is quetiapine. And I said, it's an antipsychotic that induces amenorrhea as an absence of periods because it affects the hormones. And she just went, oh, I didn't know that, how interesting. And then she went off and I thought, goodness me, you've written guidelines and you don't know. It's quite worrying, isn't it? [01:21:38][51.0]

Aini Kamal: [01:21:39] That is worrying and concerning. [01:21:40][1.3]

Dr Louise Newson: [01:21:40] But that's why I think research can change conversations and nothing is black and white in medicine. I mean, we've published a lot about testosterone, haven't we? [01:21:50][9.7]

Aini Kamal: [01:21:50] A lot. [01:21:50][0.1]

Dr Louise Newson: [01:21:51] And I remember, I don't know if you remember, Aini, I was in Oxford, I was with my daughter and she was with a friend and they were in Oxford running around outside. And you presented some data to me with Dan and it was about symptom improvement with testosterone. It's the first time you'd ever looked at it. [01:22:06][15.4]

Aini Kamal: [01:22:06] Oh, yeah. I remember that. [01:22:07][0.4]

Dr Louise Newson: [01:22:07] Do you remember I started crying? [01:22:08][0.9]

Aini Kamal: [01:22:08] I remember, I remember. [01:22:09][0.7]

Dr Louise Newson: [01:22:10] Because it was so validating for me as a clinician, because there's a lot of medical misogyny, a lot a medical gaslighting, but there's also, I don't know what the word is for it, but there is a lot gaslighting for me as a clinician saying. Oh, you're making this up. Oh, it's just your patients. Oh, it's because they have a nice cup of coffee in the waiting room. Oh, it's because it's a private clinic. And so when you did that, it wasn't just my patients for a start. It was all clinic patients, but it was also symptoms that women weren't expecting to improve. I think maybe more now, people know more about testosterone, but this must have been about, well, four years ago. It was one of your first projects, wasn't it? [01:22:47][37.6]

Aini Kamal: [01:22:47] It was the first, yes. [01:22:48][0.6]

Dr Louise Newson: [01:22:48] And when you said that joint pain improves... [01:22:50][2.0]

Aini Kamal: [01:22:51] Yes. [01:22:51][0.0]

Dr Louise Newson: [01:22:52] And vaginal dryness improves, and urinary tract symptoms improved, as well as mood, energy, concentration. I think I was crying because I was so happy, but also so relieved that this was actually data that we could hopefully publish, but it takes so long to get anything published. And then when we have had it published, and we've had more data, haven't we, and more with Mo, we've have had several studies now, and they're observational real-life data. But even recently, one of the menopause society guidelines. In fact, two of them in the last few weeks, certain doctors have been saying how bad our data is and they've pulled it out in front of the whole audience. And one of them I challenged, the organiser, and they said, oh, well, the speakers can do what they like. It's up to them to unpick data. But the thing is, we're not saying it's anything other than real world data where we are seeing people. But some people seem so intent on trying to prove that testosterone doesn't help with other symptoms. It feels really weird, doesn't it? [01:24:00][68.0]

Aini Kamal: [01:24:02] It does. It's also, if we just go back to basics, we've got testosterone, women have more testosterone than estrogen. I don't think a lot of people know that. I didn't know that until we started going into it. It's a very male-centric hormone, but we've got it flooding around our body. So if it's flooding around our body it's doing something. [01:24:22][20.8]

Dr Louise Newson: [01:24:24] And also, it's made in our brain... [01:24:26][1.9]

Aini Kamal: [01:24:28] We have got receptors. [01:24:30][1.9]

Dr Louise Newson: [01:24:30] ...and it helps every cell in our brain, not just one area, and I don't think there is just one area that works on libido anyway, but it seems like since we've been publishing more data, there's been certain people that have just tried to disprove and discredit us as a research team. And I think, gosh, this is really interesting, because actually, as a neuroscientist, who now understands about the role of hormones in the brain, you're thinking, well, that research makes sense. Whereas if you have research that doesn't make sense, the most important thing is to challenge it and question it. But the other thing is, is to replicate it on bigger numbers. So when we started, we had small numbers of patients. Now we've got bigger and bigger and bigger and now our data sets are huge. And also having other people to analyse it is really important as well, isn't it? [01:25:16][45.3]

Aini Kamal: [01:25:16] Yes, it is and they do statistical tests, not like they do a simple bar chart. No, no, no. They go into depth with analysis and they still find it consistent. [01:25:23][6.7]

Dr Louise Newson: [01:25:25] So it's an exciting time, isn't it? [01:25:27][1.8]

Aini Kamal: [01:25:29] I particularly love the qualitative studies as well. [01:25:29][0.3]

Dr Louise Newson: [01:25:30] Yes, so mention those. [01:25:30][0.4]

Aini Kamal: [01:25:31] We did one on the testosterone ban, didn't we, on competitive athletes, and we did a study and we did a survey and we asked women, we just asked what do you think about the ban? What's your thoughts on it? And Louise, we had so many women saying I had to choose between my love for my sport and what I've worked my entire life for and my quality of life. Just that quote alone. Sent me chills because that shouldn't be the case. [01:26:00][29.5]

Dr Louise Newson: [01:26:02] The actual paper came out 2025, we did the survey probably 2024 I think, and I've got a patient who's a professional cyclist and she's on estradiol, she's on progesterone, but she has migraine, joint pain, she has low libido, she has low mood, she has poor memory, and we applied to WADA, which is an anti-doping to say she needs testosterone, they turned it down. So she's now, she's got a big race in the next couple of weeks and she's got to, she is literally choosing between hanging up her bike or then taking testosterone or carrying on. But she has such poor quality of life. Her husband's also a cyclist and very supportive. They haven't had sex for so long, but it's not just even about sex. It's everything else, but because it was everything else as well. And I've put that into the medical report. They said, no, she has to have hyperactive sexual desire disorder without any other reason for it. And so it's just the most barbaric thing. So, but then I'm saying, well, so are you saying that professional athletes with low testosterone aren't allowed a libido because that's what they're basically doing. So as a human rights issue, surely anybody should be allowed to have a libido. So, and when you read some of their information, they're very confused between natural and synthetic testosterones. Because they talk about the harms of testosterone, but it's not the bioidentical testosterone we prescribe. So we're now going to put in another application to appeal. We've got a really great lawyer who's working pro bono with us, which is incredible. But it's so awful because it wasn't just one person in this survey, and there's been lots of others that have contacted me who are professional sports players. It feels just wrong that women can't have testosterone under a medical exemption certificate. But hearing those stories is even more powerful than a tick box, isn't it? [01:28:03][121.3]

Aini Kamal: [01:28:03] Yeah, yeah. And sometimes it's more powerful than a stat just hearing the words from these women. [01:28:08][5.0]

Dr Louise Newson: [01:28:09] So we've got a lot more planned. [01:28:10][1.2]

Aini Kamal: [01:28:11] A lot more. [01:28:11][0.4]

Dr Louise Newson: [01:28:11] In fact, I feel sorry for you because we've so many projects and then suddenly I'll go, oh, we've this idea and that idea. But, you know, they range from addictions to more with testosterone, to migraines, there's so much isn't there? [01:28:25][14.2]

Aini Kamal: [01:28:25] Yeah, yeah, and why? Because hormones act everywhere across our lifespan. [01:28:27][1.6]

Dr Louise Newson: [01:28:29] So we're going to change the shape of the conversation with our research. And we've got some exciting plans going forward. But I'm really grateful. I'm so grateful. I'm publicly really grateful to you and Amy Neville, who is just wonderful as well who started off doing admin, and now she's working full-time on research. [01:28:48][19.0]

Aini Kamal: [01:28:48] She's literally my right hand. [01:28:49][0.8]

Dr Louise Newson: [01:28:49] So you, and it's very confusing, Aini and Amy, but it doesn't matter because you work so well together and then live as well and then Georgie does a lot of our clinical audit and then we have other people. We are very blessed, but we want to expand our team and do even more because there's so much. So before we end, three things that you want to be the most proud of for your research, so either stuff you've worked on, you've done already, or that you you're working on or you want, what three things. [01:29:18][28.4]

Aini Kamal: [01:29:19] I would want our research to help women access the service easier, whether it be, it doesn't matter where they live, doesn't matter what it's for, just to be able to help that process a little bit better, because I know that women have to really advocate for simple, simple things. Second would be, I'm really passionate about health inequalities when comes to different cultures, being a Muslim, Bengali person myself. There is a lot of fear when it comes to hormones. When I speak to my mum, my mother-in-law, aunties, even friends actually, my own age, there's fear there. And it is because, and I always think about your strawberry analogy, comparing synthetic and bioidentical, it really does come to education and being able to relay that in different languages. So I think being able to help close that gap and there are other groups, for example, the neurodiverse groups and physically disabled, those groups. They matter a lot, obviously. And third, giving women a platform to really raise what they're feeling and what they're thinking and just informing them of what their options are. I learn new things about guidelines every single day. I didn't know there were options, but now I know. [01:30:33][74.4]

Dr Louise Newson: [01:30:34] Yes, absolutely. And, you know, I mean, I'm proud of a lot of my work. But if someone says what a, you know, one of the main things you're proud of, I am most proud of our research, what we've published, what we've done together. And so I'm very grateful for you coming today and just talking about it. [01:30:49][15.2]

Aini Kamal: [01:30:50] Thank you for having me. [01:30:51][0.1]

Dr Louise Newson: [01:30:51] Just finally, before I end, some of our research was presented at the FDA recently in the US. So and that was all due to you and the research team. So to see the FDA, Rachel Rubin, talking about our research was a real pinch me moment. [01:31:04][13.6]

Aini Kamal: [01:31:05] It really, really was. [01:31:05][0.4]

Dr Louise Newson: [01:31:05] But thank you so much, Aini, it's been great. Thank you. [01:31:07][1.7]

Dr Louise Newson: [01:31:07] So just a quick one, it'd be really great if you could follow or subscribe to this podcast. This will really help me reach more people with evidence-based information about hormones and their future health. And it also ensures that you'll never miss a future episode. Thank you. [01:31:07][0.0]

‍